this post was submitted on 13 Aug 2024
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[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

Many reasons on many levels. One of them: Browser developers and the companies behind them benefit from a system where we have basically 2 options that reliably work. They have a stronger interest in keeping this expensive, rather than making it easy and cheap. So making sure other people can also develop a different browser is not on the agenda of anyone relevant.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 months ago

Because you don't make money on making one, you make money on how it alters the view on how people see the Internet.

Under Microsoft, the Internet was made janky enough to encourage more than the basic web use require third party plug-ins that didn't always work or a computer program running in Windows.

Under Google, the Internet is more standardized across platforms, but Google can shape how the Internet works for it's own profit.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago
[–] [email protected] 28 points 2 months ago

https://caniuse.com/

Just try to match a bare minimum of features.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago

There are a lot of things that they have to do, and they have to do them right with extremely little tolerance for error.

The Web has become the de facto method of accessing the internet for almost everything. Most people think of it as the internet.

A lot of people do critical stuff through web browsers, so if something on a website breaks because of the browser, it's a huge problem.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Over the years browsers have accumulated too many features. If it was just plain HTML and CSS rendering it wouldn't be so bad.

I agree with others who have said that browsers are basically operating systems now.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago

The fact that I can go to one website and have a pretty much parity perfect and functioning photoshop for free, go to another and play online multiplayer games and then just go to a social webpage, forums and so much more in the same place is mind blowing when you think of how different these things are and how it all works flawlessly in the same program

[–] [email protected] 47 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Browsers are literally the best attempt at the everything app.

There's already been a lot of good answers on this. But a goody oldie article on making a browser is covered in Matt Brubeck's 2014 article, Let's Build A Browser Engine.

If you want to see one of the most minimal source code for a terminal based browser that is still in use today, I recommend downloading the source code for the Links Browser. Note that this site is very old and doesn't even use https. But the source code can still be had here.

Browser software is super interesting, but there's a lot even for a bare minimum setup like Links, so that's more or less why most people don't develop new ones from scratch anymore. Though there are a few exceptions like Servo, and Surf but they are pretty buggy tbh. Hope that helps and sparks your interest.

EDIT: Also of interest is Tali Garsiel's article, How Browsers Work. This is probably one of the best in depth articles on the subject.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Surf is just a wrapper around WebKit, which is developed by Apple and used in Safari. Surf isn't a from-scratch browser implementation.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago

Oh, I honestly didn't remember that, and just put that in as an afterthought. Should have double checked myself. Thanks for the clarification.

Well anyways. I love this subject enough to admit when I'm wrong. And also, in researching the subject more, I found that there is the Ladybird Browser which is apparently not based on Chromium nor Firefox. I have not played around with it, but it's nice to see people still putting in effort to make a new browser engine.

I also found this article where the author makes a browser based off of Matt Brubeck's aforementioned article. Very interesting stuff.

[–] [email protected] 41 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Not only do you have to support an insane amount of standards, you need to do it fast. Firefox and Chromium are optimized so much for speed, and nobody will use your web browser if it's slow or uses up tons of ram.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Or has no support for any addons

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago

Chrome is in its way to that!

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago (3 children)

uses up tons of ram

In my experience, Chrome is a RAM hog. I use FF. Are other browsers even worse with RAM use than Chrome?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

What other browsers? The Firefox forks as well as Safari and those using WebKit aren't worse, but the rest are just rebranded Chromes.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago (3 children)

It's the websites that requires all the memory, the browser can't magically take less memory than what a website demands.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

Well, they actually can, but it is not magic, it might not work everywhere, but it indeed involves going against website demands. There is reader view in firefox (that parses a page and gives text and images), there's ublock-origin that alone blocks so much adds and tracking that webpages load faster, there is ''i dont care about cookies'' (that automatically selects the cookie options on your chosen option), etc, stuff that could be implemented in the browser as options for the user just like privacy settings.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago

No, but it can take more than the website demands.
For example, browsers these days pre-load links before you click on them. If I remember correctly (and if it's still implemented like this), Firefox by default would only do a DNS lookup and TLS handshake, to keep memory+power usage and security concerns low, whereas Chrome optimized more for being as fast as possible, and already downloaded the first webpage files.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

magically? no. but, i'm pretty sure there are ways, especially if you have a thousand tabs open. which of course you do.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

About a decade ago, I heard from a Chrome developer that their statistics showed that over 90% of users never used the multiple tabs feature. I was shocked at the time, but I'd be even more shocked now.

That said, users do seem to fall into two categories: single tab or a gazillion tabs, with no in between.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Me with my youtube page, then my page with tumblr, twitter and skindeep all in my personal desktop seem very organized and all, until I switch to my university desktop and oh my god why do I still have this article open I've done that presentation LAST SEMESTER oh god I have 30 tabs in just this window and I have 5 more windows with fuck knows how many other tabs!!! Then my third desktop is my torrenting one with some search pages open so that I can just refresh the search for a new episode of whatever series/anime I'm watching now, totaling 1 tab in one single window

I somehow fit perfectly in both extremes and the middle ground lol

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

I imagine the Chromium devs have put a lot of work into reducing memory usage. Work that'll have to be replicated by whichever small team is working on this hypothetical browser.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 2 months ago (1 children)

They're basically as complex as operating systems these days.

You need to implement several huge standards in order to get relatively simple modern sites to load

[–] [email protected] 26 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

Fun fact: chromium has about 1.5 million more lines of code than the Linux kernel (about 32mil vs about 30.5mil), not including whitespace/docs/etc.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

IIRC, even KDE and their whole suite of apps are dwarfed by the LOC count of browser (forgot if it is firefox or chromium)

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

It is however also worth noting that lines of code is a not great metric for complexity

But yes, as a casual comparison it's interesting

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago (3 children)

If only non-animated content could be rendered using something other than HTML/CSS.

I mean, most web content such as news or blogs are static text plus images. We could use a much simpler format with a really low entry point for more competition.

We can use apps for the complicated and dynamic content. I’m really generalizing but it’s out of frustration from how shitty the web has become and how it’s controlled by so few mega corporations.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It's been tried.

Lots of people do use gemini, but I think it's past the point where, if were ever going to catch on, it would have.

Personally, I think it's mostly OK, but went too far with simplifying the gmi spec; it's too simple. And some things that need to be possible for success, aren't, and never can be. I think it's too flawed to have ever caught on.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Wish at least Lemmy and Mastodon (the whole fediverse) were possible to see in Gemini browsers at least (i'm using Lagrange in case anyone wants to try), we are already immune to the technical and commercial obstacles of mainstream web, and are just text and image.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

That's exactly what I mean. The FediVerse in general can work fine without JavaScript, CSS, or any cruft, but Gemini is even too simple for that to be an enjoyable experience. IMO.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

There are other formats. For example markdown is widely used in the web. It's biggest problem is the lack of standardization though.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

The obscene amount of copyright protection BS and ads and tracking probably doesn't help. The average website, in my eyes, is massively bloated and over engineered for the content they actually deliver.

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