I have the circuits for all my "dumb" appliances monitored by my homeassistant. Then HA sends notifications to my phone. And it doesn't need to send 3.6GB to the internet to do it.
this post was submitted on 04 Apr 2024
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I just bought a new dishwasher and it came with "smart" features like remote start and notifications, which I don't want. Easy solution: I didn't connect it to my wifi.
On the positive side, the manufacturer (Bosch) wasn't pushy about it at all. The only indication that the machine has smart features was a small instruction card, which I promptly tossed in the recycling.
having lots of networked devices means your life depends on a lot of network programmers
I have a supposedly smart washing machine that came with the apartment. Setting it up in my locked down appliances network, it didn't work with home-assistant, required cloud access and wanted me to open up ports in the firewall. Nope. No network connection for you. You are a regular dumb old washing machine.
This is an old article and iirc this was a reporting issue with their router. The wash machine was not using that much data.
Yeah, that's a much simpler explanation. The data any given smart device sends (unless it's streaming content) should be on the order of a few megabytes per day, if that. All it would need is:
- outgoing notifications
- incoming requests
- update checks
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At this point I suspect that washing machine vendors are running botnets themselves. People won’t care anyway what happens with their appliances without consent anyway.
I would imagine that someone might have compromised the washing machine and used it as part of a botnet to attack another system. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that washing machine companies might not be the most-proactive at pushing security updates.
If it's got a full general purpose CPU and OS, yeah it can be vulnerable, but a lot of IoT stuff use microcontrollers that run one monolithic program. There's usually no other OS services or hidden exploits to use, I'm having trouble imagining how you'd break out of such a device once you've taken control of it, if you can at all. Can a smarter person correct me if I'm wrong, and explain how chips like the common ESP32 and ESP8266 are vulnerable to attack? Maybe through the RTOS and Wifi stack?
I'm an embedded hobbyist so I'd like to learn about securing my own devices.
Compromised iot devices sold as residential proxy is pretty hot right now: https://thehackernews.com/2024/03/themoon-botnet-resurfaces-exploiting.html?m=1
Those are targeting Linux routers and iot devices though. However, esp32 had vulnerabilities in the past such as the fatal fury attack, though it requires physical access to execute.
This particular homeowner is baffled that anyone would buy a washing machine that needs an internet connection. I'm all for smart appliances, but a smart washing machine is a solution in search of a problem.
You can also use it to start a load while you’re at work when you didn’t want your clothes sitting after washing all day. True, there’s old school delay functions but this gives a little more control.
Not saying it’s worth it, but a feature I haven’t seen anyone else mention.
If you add white vinegar to load, you won’t get the ick from clothes sitting in washer for hours.
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I’m all for smart appliances
I'm personally not. I'm for appliances with a standard interface, maybe, through which it can be connected to some smart home system.
I do not mean internet access or anything else "smart" in the appliance itself. I mean being able to use the same functions as buttons and indicators offer, remotely. I2C will do.
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Electricity is pretty expensive where I live, but solar opportunity is fairly good. Selling power back to grid is nowhere near as cost effective as using solar directly.
So, I could see a compelling use case of, "I want my laundry done by X o'clock. Start the wash when it'll be mostly on my cheap solar."
But yeah. I would never buy one unless it supports local-only/VLAN-restricts-internet-access usage.
I set it up to alert my smart speakers when it's done so my family doesn't leave their laundry in the washer to mold and rot all day. That's about all I use the smart features for. And I do it through a 3rd party open source home automation solution.
I don't think any need an internet connection...
But some people connect everything they can for some reason.
I doubt it is needed. Certainly hope not.
I just ordered a dryer that may have to go on top of my dishwasher which is on top of my washing machine - hard to explain why except to say there was no good place for the ~~washing machine~~ dishwasher in the kitchen.
If that happens, I'll be able to reach the clothes, but the control panel will be a bit of a stretch. In that case wifi control could be clutch.
Edit: my brain can never sort those two out.
Also I understand this is not the intended use case, I just think it's funny.
I’m so curious about your kitchen setup
There's no dedicated spot for a dishwasher under any of the benches, and to get a hose out from the sink would need holes drilled that I'm not prepared to do because it's a rental. Also, all the wall area is spoken for, and there are doors immediately next to the kitchen on both sides. One of those doors is the laundry, so I just stuck it in there. It's a small laundry though, so there's no space side by side for anything. If the triple stack doesn't work, the dryer can go on the opposite side of the kitchen under or over my small freezer, since it doesn't need water. That's where my dishwasher would've gone if not for the hoses that would've needed to go across the floor.
If you're putting in a dishwasher just drill the holes. Your landlord will thank you for saving them the trouble of having to do that themselves some day.
I don't think any normal landlord would give two shits about some dishwasher-hose-sized holes drilled under a sink, between internal cabinet walls, that no one will ever see. Such holes are so far back and out of the way... No one would ever notice unless they're missing.
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I don't know if the stack will work, unless you have tall ceilings. Standard dishwasher is 3ft, a miniature dryer is 2ft, and a miniature washing machine is 2ft. That's 8ft without stacking hardware, and standard ceilings are 8ft 2in.
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Forgotten laundry leads to mildew. Plenty of home assistance scripts out there to remind users to empty washer/dryer.
Makes sense for manufacturers to want to build this feature into the appliance itself.
I just start a timer on my phone?
I have one for both my dryer and my washer.
I load the washer then start the timer, when it goes off I just load it in the dryer then start the other timer.
It's super easy and it's no effort at all.
I had an old wind up kitchen timer with writing on it for a while but I missed it a few too many times so I switched to the phone timers.
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I love mine. It reminds me when to clean it, when the drain is acting up, and when it’s done. It can even order supplies on its own. Sure all those things can be handled with a calendar but I’m lazy.
I love my brain chip. It reminds me when to clean myself, when my bowels are acting up, and when I'm dead. It can even order products I don't need on its own. Sure all those things can be handled with my own brain but I'm lazy.
- your grandkids in 2074
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The drain issue might be hard to figure out on your own. Mine has a little notification light that comes on to run a self-clean cycle every x number of washes, but I’m pretty sure I’m the only one in my house who actually runs it.
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I guess it can notify you via your cell phone when a load is done. I could see that having value.
I know so many people that will tell me that that is important to them. Those same people will hear the little jingle on their washing machine know that it's done, and then not go move the laundry around for 3 hours
Yeah.
Growing up, the washer and dryer were in the basement and you could really only hear that if you were in the living room with the TV off (so... never). But as an adult (who is finally living somewhere with its own washer/dryer...), I can hear that jingle throughout the entire house if I am not watching a loud movie at the time.
Growing up, we would more or less time it. Start a load and set the alarm on your watch for when it is done. But basically any modern washer/dryer is going to use fuzzy logic based on load weight and water levels and humidity and so forth. You can approximate how long it takes, but you don't really have a proper timer. Which was annoying when my friends' washer broke and they had to do loads at my place and it was always "Can you text us when it actually finishes?" or "So... I see you play Warframe. A lot... Uhm... It says there is five more minutes left"
So yeah. I can definitely see value in a networked washer or dryer depending on your living situation. And, while it would break IMMEDIATELY, I would love a washer and dryer with SMS push notifications for apartment complexes.
Also, while it is immensely wasteful (or a great way to get mildewy clothes), there is something to being able to start a dryer load when I pass the gas station about 20 minutes from home on a snowboard day. Because that would mean that I would have time to get home, take a really quick shower, and put on toasty warm clothes to compensate for having spent a few hours bouncing in the snow. And I would allow SO much spyware to enable that...
Couldn't you just program it to start (and stop) at a given time, or make a note of how long it says on the display that it'll take?
It seems (to me) like a very, very minor improvement for a huge cost, namely that your washing machine is on your network and is internet connected.
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Then again, a simple timer on your phone could do the same thing.
Modern machines don’t display accurate cycle times at all. They use sensors to detect when to finish.
Exactly, it's just an estimate.
Wait: Do the times listed on the screen of your washer/dryer actually reflect reality‽
My dryer will say it's got 20 minutes remaining for like an hour and a half. And yes, I clean the lint screen and vent regularly (all the way up to the roof!).
Washers usually give better estimates than dryers. How long something takes to dry depends on the material used. The washer doesn't care about anything but weight.
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Or even just knowing approximately how long the cycle goes for.
Mine plays a loud jingle when it's done, which seems to be enough for me.
Its enough for me too. But not everyone has the same use case and environment. I definitely see why someone would want this.
What I disagree with is that it needs to communicate to the internet to do this. It adds delay and potential for outage if your internet is out. But they do this so they can force you to get their app and milk you for extra data to sell. Internet capable smart devices are to harvest data not grant features. Features could be done better by ZigBee and a hub, but that doesnt grant the device a way to phone home
Mine is in my garage, and I can't hear the jingle from inside the house.
But two power monitoring smart plugs+ home assistant fixed that issue
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Yup. There are two situations here:
- I'm in my house and can hear the sound
- I'm not at my house and don't care when it finishes
If I'm at home and won't hear the sound for some reason, I'll just set an alarm on my phone. My washing machine tells me how long it'll take, so there's no guesswork here.
My washing machine tells me how long it'll take, so there's no guesswork here.
Washing machines exist that are smarter than just running a fixed program. They adjust the program, and thus duration, based om how dirty the clothes are. The same goes for dryers that look at the actual humidity of the clothes to determine if they’re finished.
Sure, and if I'm off by a few minutes, that's totally fine. I honestly don't need to know the moment my clothes are done, it can wait 20-30 minutes usually. In general, a laundry run takes an hour, plus whatever soak time I choose.
So I really don't need any network access. I guess it's fine if others want it, but I see it as a liability. If it connects to a network, that's a security vulnerability (don't want a laundry DOS) and another thing to break. Ideally, every model could optionally ship without it.
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I am completely in agreement and would be even willing to pay more for dumb appliances if it comes right down to it.
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This is the best summary I could come up with:
A tech-savvy San Francisco resident has sparked conversation online after he shared a perplexing discovery about his LG washing machine's seemingly voracious appetite for data on X (formerly Twitter).
The connection to a Wi-Fi network allows the user to operate functions from a smartphone, download additional wash programs, and receive alerts when a load is complete.
Results found that smart washing machines are collecting a significant amount of user data, including personal information such as date of birth, location, and even access to photos.
article said that LG washing machines require users to provide their date of birth to use the associated app, while Samsung and Miele request access to photos and location data.
Lee is keen to embrace technological advances in everyday life but was baffled by the behavior of the washing machine and shared what he had found on X, hoping to prompt a laugh or two with his followers.
The unexpected attention prompted a wave of reactions and jokes, touching on issues including AI, bitcoin, privacy, downloadable content (DLC), and the ever-growing impact of technology on our lives.
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