this post was submitted on 21 May 2024
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(page 3) 44 comments
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[–] [email protected] 37 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (7 children)

"Disable" like we disabled Iranian uranium enrichment centrifuges?

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

The article is available only for registered user; does someone has the source please?

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[–] [email protected] 46 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Just disable?

I've heard for years now that they have those chip fabs rigged to explode, as to not let them fall into China's hands.

[–] [email protected] 39 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (15 children)

The US Army War College published a paper outlining the plan awhile back.

To start, the United States and Taiwan should lay plans for a targeted scorched-earth strategy that would render Taiwan not just unattractive if ever seized by force, but positively costly to maintain. This could be done most effectively by threatening to destroy facilities belonging to the Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company, the most important chipmaker in the world and China’s most important supplier.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 11 months ago

First day of job training is to keep the one machine running that keeps the place from exploding.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 11 months ago (6 children)

This is a good thing, but it's hardly unique. Any advanced manufacturing facility will have remote access to their equipment in case an operator needs reconfigure it, transfer data, or in this case if they're invaded by Lesser Taiwan.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago

West Taiwan friend. Lesser sounds odd when it's more populated and geographically larger. Though inferior sounds fitting

[–] [email protected] 14 points 11 months ago

I'm assuming "disable" in this case is slightly more than just turning it off. I wouldn't be surprised if the building isn't left standing after it's "disabled" here.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago

This sounds more like a deadman switch.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago

I hope its a little better than remote access to disable. Internet access can be knocked out and cell signals jammed. Hopefully they've gorba deadman switch and disable things immediately in the event of an invasion.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago

Message to China: don't, because you would not find nothing here anyway.

Message to everybody else: y'all better help China with their decision, or else!!

[–] [email protected] 18 points 11 months ago (1 children)

The question is if their remote disable will be triggered before the US blows the factory up anyway.

[–] [email protected] 35 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Media: So... you know those high-tech chipmaking machines? The ones banned for sale to China. The ones needed to make the processors for phones, cars, TVs, and AI servers. What happens if China invades Taiwan? Doesn't Taiwan have a lot of those machines?

Manufacturer: not a problem.

Media: Phew. Glad that's settled..... Say, how come?

Manufacturer: (slaps the roof of the $250M machine). We can lock this baby remotely. In fact, here's the remote (pulls out a keyfob).

Media: OK, cool, cool.

Techies of the world: WHAT THE ACTUAL FU..... !!!

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

This is entirely expected to any computer avid person tho no? Its like all computerized things today. Military equipment, trains, tractors, cars, web services, phones etc. Everything is backdoored and remotely controllable.

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 11 months ago

Techies: what if it bricks accidentally?

Manufacturer: *spinning the key fob* we didn't think that far, to be honest

A few moments later

Manufacturer: *proceeds to drop the remote and accidentally bricks everything*

[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Why the hell would they advertise this is beyond me...

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

Is it not obvious? To discourage Chinese invasion.

China wants Taiwan's technology and manufacturing. If they destroy it, China will gain nothing.

[–] [email protected] 53 points 11 months ago (3 children)

My understanding is that some of the benefits China would get from invading Taiwan is the control of Taiwan's world-leading semiconductor industry. So making it public knowledge that any invading force (i.e. China) would not be able to take over their production capabilities is a small deterrent.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 11 months ago

It's a small deterrent for China but a bigger incentive for other countries to defend Taiwan.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

That's what some analysts say but I really don't think China cares. They want the land (*it's strategically important for naval operations) and a unified China.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 11 months ago (2 children)

This is true, China doesn't care. I'm actually confused about the narrative around China wanting to take TSMC. Even the most cursory glace at the situation should make it obvious this isn't one of China's goals. This is because these EUV machines don't work on magic. They work on knowledge and spare parts. Even in the unlikely scenario that China somehow invades and these machines aren't destroyed by either China or the retreating Taiwanese, they aren't going to be able to operate them and more importantly get spare parts to keep them running. They'd at best be used to disassemble and review.

All of this ignores the fact that China is already at 5nm using their own equipment anyway. For the extra 2nm of difference between TSMC's 3nm to SMIC's 5nm isn't large enough to rationalize anything close to what they're talking about. It'd be cheaper to just keep subsidizing the Chinese industry rather than invading.

All of this is to say, that China may or may not invade, but TSMC isn't on the list of reasons. If anything, it's on the opposite end. China has a LOT of motivation to bomb TSMC to prevent the west from getting chips as if TSMC is gone, then suddenly Chinese 5nm are pretty much the most advanced chips in the world (besides Samsung). Thus, the real conclusion is we need to invest in Samsung, which surprisingly isn't happening for whatever reason is beyond me.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago

Keep in mind that the "nm" in the different company's lithography process names are basically just marketing at this point, and don't reflect anything meaningful about the actual size of transistors. As far as I know, we don't really know much about China's latest "5nm" process and how it actually compares to others.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

And even if they did get the machines in working order, yay it'll be relevant for 5 to maybe 10 years before tech goes up.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago

Chinese GPUs need to be tested thoroughly across AAA titles, Linux. Imagine playing Genshin or Wuthering Waves with those GPUs.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (2 children)

They want power and influence, I don't think they care too much (or at all) about their citizens be it divided or united. Unless those citizens add to power or influence, of course

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago

Yeah that's why they want the land, it's important strategically for naval operations.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Yup, US gov is fucked up. Oh, wait...

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago

Well, I don't think any government is different in that regard 😅

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[–] [email protected] 81 points 11 months ago (3 children)

The flip side of this is that hackers can brick the same machines.....

[–] [email protected] 11 points 11 months ago

Geopolitics aside, the technical architecture implementation of this mechanism is really interesting for me. I think over all, having extra ability to disable these systems would prevent US launching attacks against the plants — which could cause spill over local civilian injuries — but there’s just so many more things to consider.

Is it a dead-man switch style of setup, where if it doesn’t get authorization from HQ after some time, it will stop working? Or is it a kill switch style of setup, where they can remotely issue a command to stop operation? Because different vectors then come up depending on the securing method. For example: Dead-man switch might be tricked/overcame by turning back the clock, whereas kill switch might be circumvented by severing the network connection before the command could be issued (literally cut the underwater cables before they start the invasion).

How is the mechanism itself secured? If it is certificate based like everything else, then we’d have to worry about the certificate signing authority getting pressured into signing certificates by state backed actors.

Would really love to learn about the setup one day after all these is over, to learn about the thinkings that’s been done on such an important piece of … “infrastructure”?

[–] [email protected] 55 points 11 months ago (6 children)

Depends how its set up. So long as it's fully independent and disconnected from existing digital infrastructure it should be safer. It could be as simple as explosives hard-wired with a buried line running up into some bunker up in the mountains.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (6 children)

state actors have hacked airgapped equipment before, an actual backdoor will be ripe for exploitation.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 months ago

That's what you have to do of you don't want the invaders to get the tech. If you brick the processors they still have the machines. I'm not sure what the secret sauce is in this case, but china has a reputation of reverse engineering things in spite of foreign laws. The best way to keep it from happening is to make sure they get no part of it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

disconnected from existing digital infrastructure

Oh come on.... this isn't just a scrap metal press.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago

Sure. But a kill switch might warrant some additional investment. It's not like your other features.

Assuming the kill switch is a real kill switch, and not just casually shutting things down in a way where they can easily be turned back on.

[–] [email protected] 44 points 11 months ago (2 children)

By remotely I don't think they meant a long RJ45 cable connected to nothing.

So this doesn't look like a setup that can be fully secure.

Could even be completely fake and just to dissuade China from invading.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 11 months ago

That would be clever.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Stuxnet would like to have a word

[–] [email protected] 15 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Note, I said safer, not completely safe. Even a hard line to a bunker simply needs someone to locate the line and activate it.

Completely safe does not and likely never will exist, as the history of human arms evolution should demonstrate.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago

Assuming it wasn't shielded and knew you where near by couldn't you just broadcast the code or what ever with enough power to cause the same effect?

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