Don’t make them yell stop again. Because by craky, they will!
this post was submitted on 16 Apr 2025
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More talk. Yak, yak, yak. What a bunch of blather.
Wake me when someone actually DOES something other than NOISE.
The Trump admin has been acting in bad faith and with wilful disregard towards justice in America for 86 days and counting.
Can we marshal Marshal Marshall yet, Marshall?
FINALLY! They DEFINITELY Will Comply NOW! They do NOT want ANOTHER Stern Letter!
You get a contempt. You get a contempt. And you get a contempt. Everybody gets a contempt.
What's the punishment for this kind of contempt? $1000 fine?
Like, okay contempt, soooo? Can't they just contempt the contempt?
Depends on the type of contempt charge. Legal Eagle compares the types in a video on this case.
tl;dw
- Civil Contempt (coercive) - incremental fines or jail time until the charged follows an order.
- Civil Contempt (compensatory) - a fine paid to someone who was wronged by ignoring a court order
- Criminal Contempt (direct) - jail time meant as punishment for directly disobeying a judge while court is in session
- Criminal Contempt (indirect) - jail time meant as punishment for disobeying a judge while court isn't in session.
Criminal contempt can be pardoned and Trump has pardoned it before. Civil contempt cannot be pardoned but it only lasts until an order is followed.
Enforcing a contempt ruling is the next issue. Normally a US marshal would enforce it but they technically answer to the Attorney General, who answers to Trump, who could order them not to listen to the judge or be fired. A court could theoretically deputize someone to enforce the order directly, but that has never happened and people could just not recognize the authority of the deputized officer.
At this rate he might get a deferred sentence and stern warning before I'm relocated to a re-education camp!
Time to start disbarring the federal lawyers who do this shit.
Now that would be an effective offense. Blatantly violate the law and lose your livelihood.
FYI the text above is currently the entire story - so no need to click a link for more info.
Good first step. Keep in mind this is from the previous order that was ignored, not the whole Kilmar Ábrego García fiasco.
Boasberg stopped short of holding any specific officials responsible for now. He said he would give the administration a chance to come into compliance with his earlier order — potentially by ensuring that the people in the Salvadoran prison will be able to ask a federal judge in the US to order their release.
If not, Boasberg said he would identify the individuals to refer to the US Justice Department for possible criminal prosecution.
While nothing will come of this, because DoJ will simply discard any such recommendation, this is an escalation. There's no way out but through, and the sooner we get to a proper uprising, the sooner this is all behind us.
For what it's worth, the judge also said that if the DoJ declines to prosecute, he will appoint another attorney to do so.
This is explicitly allowed in federal law, so it'll be interesting to see how they try to wiggle out of this one.
Could the court, at the next hearing on this matter, jail the DOJ lawyer representing the government for contempt?
The thing where the judge orders summary jail time is reserved for contempt "a facie curiae", meaning "in the face of the court". That's for blatant disrespect or disruption in the courtroom in front of the judge.
So far, Drew Ensign has managed to refrain from anything as directed as that. So he hasn't been jailed.
Unlikely, since the attorneys did not disregard the order. Their client(s) did. Their client(s) would be the ones subject to the contempt charge, when they are identified.
It's not much, but this will be important as evidence should Congress ever find its spine and actually consider impeachment.
ETA: and waiting around for that unlikely possibly might be a fools errand.
And what happens if Congress impeaches him?
It is the exact same problem. Laws that cannot/will not be enforced aren't laws.
If this, republican majority impeached him, then the senate would definitely convict. In that case Trump is no longer the president.
The past two times dems held the house, but not the senate, so Republicans in the senate prevented a conviction.
Impeachment means there is evidence of misconduct (at a significant level). Senate conviction means you're out as president.
Oh. And he'll say "Oh no, you got me" and walk away? I mean, he did exactly that on Jan 6 that one time, right?
Like, just to check: he is going to ignore The Law if it is written law or a ruling from a judge or the supreem court. But hey, if the people he tried to have fucking murdered (and worse) say not to do something, he'll definitely listen to them, right?
If we get to the point where the senate convicts him, I think it's game over. That means that republican party has finally turned on him (meaning they think the public has too).
US is sliding towards authoritarianism, but having the whole country against you is still not something he can overcome.
He literally tried to have the senate (and house) murdered by an angry mob.
But yeah, that is definitely going to be the one line he won't cross. Ignoring their disapproval.
I dunno. It's never happened in my lifetime, and certainly not with half of the legislative branch being complicit in the descent into fascism.
Like I said, I don't really have a lot of optimism in their ability to do what is required. On top of that, the enablers aren't gone just because Trump might be someday. Our collective work is only just beginning, and it starts with little actions like those of the judge in this case.
I'm glad to see your original comment. There is a lot of pessimism going around and it feels like a guy spitting on a forest fire to try and put it out. But we won't get through this in one dramatic event. There's got to be a ton of this little stuff first. We've watched countless other judges just give in, but this one said, nah, do it right or don't do it. Every bit of resistance adds up. Authoritarianism only stays strong when people don't do the most basic of things to oppose it.
I'd like to see less people adding the statements of hopelessness to their comments though. These people have no divine right to run our countries, and we don't need to accept their injustice. We're each welcome to express our tolerance of their actions to the extent we feel comfortable doing. To some that will be just saying no to illegal or unjust things. Some people will discover direct action. Some will be the protection for those that can't or won't take a more aggressive position. But there is a role for everyone to take if we want to change what we have right now.
Even after something like John Brown's rebellion attempt, it took a long time for anything to come of that extreme event, but it had to start somewhere, and we can all be a spark of rebellion in our own social circles.
Authoritarianism only stays strong when people don't do the most basic of things to oppose it.
Yeah, I subscribe to the Green Lantern/Tinkerbell theory of authoritarianism: the dictator only has power as long as people believe it. So skepticism of claims of power become self fulfilling, and belief in dictator power also becomes self fulfilling.
So don't comply in advance. Make them work for every inch, even on things that seem inevitable. Every delay you cause to their agenda buys someone else a reprieve.
I read your other reply to this thread and appreciated it.
It gets frustrating to see people say "well just do the questionable things they do back to them and ignore the rules like they do." I get the desire to give them a taste of their own medicine, but building a lefty authoritarian regime isn't any more desirable to me than a righty one.
We don't all need to become radicals, but we don't need to roll out the carpet to those trying to twist the legal and political systems for corrupt purposes.
Exactly. I'm gonna do the lawful good thing on my end, and work my hardest to protect the actual institutions that still have power to provide some checks on the government currently in the hands of a wannabe dictator.
Give 'em hell! 🔥
Thank you for what you do.
Ha I should be clear, in my normal day to day responsibilities I mainly sue over money, which tends not to involve political considerations at all. That being said, the arbitrary way that the Trump admin has canceled contracts, yanked grants, canceled things that others have had to rush in and fill the vacuum on (including spending their own money), I might very well end up with a politically charged case at some point.
And maybe there's something to be said to committing some time or effort or money to public interest and public impact litigation for the types of cases not typically in my wheelhouse.
No matter what it is you're doing, I'm sure it's important to your clients. With the news this week that all the government data is going over Starlink and likely collected by Russia, I'm waiting for a waterfall of things like identity theft and all sorts of scams and who knows what else, you may be even more important. You're still in a position to help people, and that's something very important in unsure times.
Pessimism is indeed a cancer.
But so is false hope. Because countless people will just say "See, there is push back. It isn't that bad". We saw exactly that happen last week (and the week before (and the week before (...))) with the tariffs. trump did something stupid to destroy the economy and livelihood of the country, he backed off a bit, and everyone praised him while ignoring that he still made things worse.
And same here. Yes, it is great that any judges are willing to throw their careers away and make themselves a target of the fascists. But nothing will change if those rulings aren't enforced and all signs are that they won't be.
But it still gives people a way to just keep ignoring it because "I am valuing my mental health"
How does one judge what is false hope in a struggle that never ends?
There have been countless people through history that have been way more brutal, violent, and irrational than probably anyone alive now. But we as humans have survived as a whole. Some tyrannical rules have carried on for multiple generations of victims, but they all end. People will never get over being oppressed. A lot of successful control is done by people who learn to balance exploiting people with giving them enough to make it not feel worth it.
In America, 2016-2020 was tempered by enough rational people, but I don't think people on either side would say 2025 feels the same as the previous term did. This is pure recklessness and disregard for order, and that is going to be harder and harder to justify to the masses. Actions already bring taken haven't had enough time for the repercussions to be felt yet for most people they will affect. Red voters in blue states will suffer. Farmers will suffer. The unskilled and uneducated will suffer. They won't be any happier being played for fools than anyone else would be. You can already see pretty hardcore Repubs asking if giving complete control of tariffs to this guy was a bad idea. Hardly any have even gone into effect as scheduled and people have seen there is no logic to it and it will hurt every group of people.
Having 1% of the population be satisfied with the current status quo is unsustainable. That doesn't mean life may not suck for the next 4 or longer. If you were a modern Repub, you may have thought life sucked since Reagan, Nixon, or Lincoln. But they persisted. And now that the tide has turned, now we have to keep doing our thing until our vision of order is achieved. And we won't even always know what that even is.
Would you be happy now if we went back to how things were under Biden? We probably would have been if the last 3 months hadn't happened. But we still had everything in place to allow an administration like this to happen. And now who know what hasn't been compromised by Musk now at this point. So I don't think we can "just go back" even if every MAGA person vanished into the ether. But we can make tomorrow a little bit better than today. And when you set realistic goals, you can find hope, and sometimes an opportunity will present itself to take a bigger slice back than you expected, and you will be ready for it because you aren't mired in nihilism.
You're allowed to feel beaten, tired, and depressed, and you can and should discuss that with people, but seeing every comment on all the threads be marked by comments of hopelessness is just not great for anything. You guys all have good things to say, and I like when that feels like the overall vibe of the threads.
How does one judge what is false hope in a struggle that never ends?
When people are celebrating an action that will accomplish absolutely nothing so that they can continue to "get on with their lives"?
And that applies to the rest of your rant. If an action doesn't move the needle in the slightest and just highlights how little hope there is then it is pointless. Unless you somehow believe that enough court orders will pile up that the guy who engaged in a little violent insurrection last time is going to say "You know what? I get that I am not wanted. I'll abdicate power peacefully". Especially when he only failed last time because he acted "too soon" and has been speed running making sure that he controls every gun in the government for this time.
We literally did exactly this last week. People were terrified of what would happen with the tariffs. trump "backed down" and... still bumped up the percentage against basically every country and is still doing everything he can to make xi jinping notice him. But people have "false hope" and are now happy and going back to their days.
So what would move the needle in your view?
Agreed. Things definitely suck right now, but things aren't hopeless. Only when we stop resisting will the fascism begin to ossify, and all the people being brave enough to resist, in both little and big ways, matter.
This is Congress’ and the SCOTUS’ chance, right here. This is it. This is what they need to reign in the POTUS. Will they rise to the occasion..? Most likely not.
I don't know if I can comfortably say "most likely," but I'm not optimistic about that possibility. Since Trump won, it's been my position that nobody's coming to save us working class peons. We will not get a group of Avengers striking from the outside or a lone Adam Jensen fighting from within.
In reality, it will take all of us doing different things to resist, and hopefully, that collective effort over time will be enough. It will still suck in the meantime.
In reality, it will take all of us doing different things to resist, and hopefully, that collective effort over time will be enough. It will still suck in the meantime.
Exactly this.
I'm a licensed attorney and I sue the government from time to time. I still think I can do that.
I've always known that the courts have limited power to reign in the President, especially in the modern era where American political parties have strengthened to the point where there's very little internal party resistance to the President's agenda (contrast to earlier eras when a Speaker of the House might have tanked the same-party President's agenda).
But the point of suing and getting the court orders is still important for the "lawful good" types to lay as much groundwork as possible for us to try our best to preserve the rule of law. If it gets frayed or bent in places, we still fight within that framework the best we can, knowing full well that in a vacuum where the law no longer constrains the powerful, that situation legitimizes any movement to do things in a "chaotic good" kind of way, from nonviolent civil disobedience to destructive acts to outright violence.
Those of us who are lawyers (and judges and even elected politicians) have our lane, at least for now, to try our best to maintain accountability within the law. If the law can't keep up, then we should still be satisfied that we tried our best to keep it within that lawful framework, because losing on that front still has the silver lining of increasing the popular will and support for extra-legal options. If they sidestep the restrictions of the law, then they'll find themselves outside the protections of the law. And maybe they have some confidence in their odds in a "might makes right" situation, but their current power structures still depend heavily on the law (even basic things like whether a dollar is legal tender or whether a piece of paper says you own something valuable).
Nice Jensen drop!
That's it. that's the article. I wanna see consequences for the facists, not the court confirming what we already know.
I agree, but it’s all about process. The only thing that ensures our rights are respected is the process that’s used every step of the way. Issuing this order was a critical step in the process. Without the contempt order as a foundation, there could be no consequences for the administration ignoring the order. I completely share your frustration, but these things matter as they build up to what should inevitably be real consequences for the fascists. The judge knows we’re all watching, so he’s gotta be sure to get it right.
That said, I’m not confident there will actually be any meaningful consequences, but there definitely wouldn’t be any without this order.
At last