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Every country should have a good defense. But I remember very well how I was flamed for saying we should invest way more into military. "No no no, you have no clue, you're stupid, the world is way too connected, conventional wars don't work anymore etc."
Well. How the turntables.
It was Poland in WW2. It's Ukraine now. Poland remembers.
@LaFinlandia well, that's been true since 1949..
it's only the Europeans who are suddenly waking up this. DE have been underperforming NATO slackers since day 1.
Now the chickens come home to roost.
Everyone blaming Trump (fuck that guy) is missing the forest for the trees.
Europe should have ceased relying on the United States for security as soon as it substantially recovered from WWII. That it didn't has been a bone of contention since before the collapse of the U.S.S.R.
To be fair, the fear of repeating the terrible wars that started in Europe was strong even after European countries recovered. I suppose it didn't look like the greatest idea to let Germany or anyone really to have a super strong army.
This here. It's not a trump issue, it's an issue of not being able to defend your own country. Every country must be able to properly fend for itself and most European countries are not. The entire British army has less long distance missiles than a single american submarine. Germany only has enough ammunition for a single day of combat.
It's just pathetic. We tried to safe money for decades and now it just backfires immensely.
You're right. Also I can't believe we wasted the 4 years under Biden and now are again caught with our pants down.
The US benifited from the slavish dependence of european countries on it, and the good business conditions that came with it. This started to change with the EU and in particular with the introduction of the euro.
I guess that it's time for civilized Europe to become a military powerhouse once again.
Coupled with the fact that a fully armed Europe would have been viewed as a very large threat to the USSR and they might have started some shenanigans before they collapsed.
Yep. Sorry our politics are so absolutely fucked, everyone. This is the end of Pax Americana. We’re going isolationist, and probably also fascist and theocratic. I’m going to leave the country.
The EU has to start to replace NATO. That at least means some shared assets like maybe ballistic missile defense, AWACS and similar assets. Combined procurement would also be a great idea. Something like ESA, but with some common EU funding as well.
Europe is going to have to get proactive about it's security too. Just defending themselves from Putin and Xi won't be enough.
I guess this will be the end of NATO. Such a dark future.
Leaving NATO requires a 2/3th majority in the american congress, which the republicans didn't quite have. However, trump can obviously keep back troops, gear and money. But he can't just leave like the Paris climate deal thingy.
I don't think that's it, but I do think it will endure massive strain.
Good.
Yes Macron said this back in 2017
literally point number one:
- A Europe that guarantees security in all its aspects
In terms of defence, Europe must have a joint intervention force, a joint defence budget and a joint doctrine for action. We need to encourage the swift creation of a European Defence Fund, permanent structured cooperation, and supplement them with a European intervention initiative that better integrates our armed forces at all stages.
and what has changed since then and what is being implemented?
Back then, Germany was barely warming up to the idea of a EU military. Now it seems to be a done deal, the European motor is going to churn and Poland seems to want to be part of it.
Poland doesn't want to be the welcome mat again.
Any decent EU military needs a common EU foreign policy. Both of those need treaty changes. Also Macron says a lot about Europe, but when he got the opportunity for action tends to fall short. France was in a great position to lead on Ukraine aid, but did not perform that amazingly.
EDIT: EU ammo purchases for Ukraine have been launched and some EU military organizational work as well, such as EU missions in Mali, the Red Sea and some other places. Also some good cooperation such as Germany and Netherlands integrating their armies.
Yes yes yes!
Fuck Orbath and let's rally around democracy and helping Ukraine!
well, sure, but with Trump going back to the big chair, and working against European interests in favor of Russian and Saudi ones, Europe is in a very bad spot, and is going to have to start making deal with Putin. no one wants to hear this, and I'm sorry for what is about to happen to Ukraine.
Europe is big enough to manage without the us. If we start working together. Starting with building up a defence industry quickly. That won’t be pretty for the US MIC, but that’s Trump’s problem.
ok. show me. see you in two years. good luck ze germans.
Oh no, a multipolar world where the slaves get a voice... How awful.
You mispelled autocratic fascists
No, the global south are not autocraric fascists that need to be ruled over by whites, fucking Nazi scum.
My comment was mostly about Russian and Chinese governments, realistically these will be the other poles of power in a multipolar world. "The global south" surely won't benefit from either one. If you think the southern people will have it better being ruled over by an autocratic fascist China then you're up for a rough awakening.
And i guess Taiwan will join the mainland soon without the US help china wont wait long
They don't have to make deals with Putin, he can't handle the EU, and America will only help him economically. The EU is the last democratic super block, they need to stand up for those of us that still want democracy to survive. I'm Canadian, we're fucked. Japan just signed a comprehensive security pact with the EU. Obviously they have fascist leaders inside the house as well, but really, NATO is dead, we need them to step up. Here's hoping, with little conviction.
I'm Canadian too and yes we are
He's right. The US can't be relied on for the next four years, at minimum. Hell, parts of the apparatus might be turned against European security.
Please, look after yourselves.
Don't be surprised if Trump pulls the US out of NATO and UN. He hates both of those organizations.
It's not just about the next 4 years, we can't base our defense on a country we can only rely on for 4 years at a time.
There were already problems with Bush Jr. then Trump once, and now Trump again.
You'd have to be insane to believe this is just a one or two off, and things will get back to normal.
Normalcy regarding NATO ended already with Bush.
@Buffalox @PugJesus #natoisdead died today.
I don't think NATO is dead, but NATO allies can't rely on USA, and USA was by far the biggest military force in NATO.
Everything else was mostly built to support American forces, which in case of an article 5 situation is the commander of the NATO forces.
Yeah.
US can’t be relied on for the next four years, at minimum.
Probably Optimistic :(
I don't think the US has been reliable since 2016 at the latest. And honestly after this... I don't think it ever will be again.
And what Trump is likely to destroy in the coming years will take ages to rebuild, assuming it ever is.
We all hope it will be enough to shock the European governments into cooperating for once, but the odds are really stacked against that, even if some are willing.
I'm hopefully being extremely pessimistic, but if the Rs have their way (and since they'll control all 3 branches of government, they most certainly will have their way), America will be a much different country. There may not be anything to rebuild because America will be exactly the way they want it to be and there won't be any more parties to go against them. The likelihood that America will be an authoritarian government is pretty high.
It shouldn't be rebuilt. Ever. There should never again be a global hegemony.
Team America: World Police was the single most deadly empire in world history, responsible for at least a dozen documented genocides directly and likely funded every major genocide except the Holocaust. The US has never been the good guys. They're Germany if Germany focused on PR.
that's a lot of shit takes for 10d old account
Hasn't been in the last 8 years. At least.
The world can't keep building around a strong USA.