this post was submitted on 27 Sep 2024
98 points (100.0% liked)

Technology

37705 readers
319 users here now

A nice place to discuss rumors, happenings, innovations, and challenges in the technology sphere. We also welcome discussions on the intersections of technology and society. If it’s technological news or discussion of technology, it probably belongs here.

Remember the overriding ethos on Beehaw: Be(e) Nice. Each user you encounter here is a person, and should be treated with kindness (even if they’re wrong, or use a Linux distro you don’t like). Personal attacks will not be tolerated.

Subcommunities on Beehaw:

This community's icon was made by Aaron Schneider, under the CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0 license.

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
98
Why a Helium Leak Disabled Every iPhone in a Medical Facility (www.vice.com)
submitted 1 month ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
30 comments fedilink hide all child comments
top 30 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

...Yet both Android and Apple phones use MEMS silicon for their devices, so why were only Apple phones affected? The answer, it seems, is because Apple recently defected from traditional quartz-based clocks in its phones in favor of clocks that are also made of MEMS silicon.

So, they ask the question of why iPhones are the only ones affected if androids also went to MEMS, then answer it by saying that apple went to MEMS. Are they saying that the clocks in Androids still use quartz, but iPhones use MEMS clocks, even though they both use general MEMS silicon?

Edit, autocorrect

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Are they saying that the clocks in Androids still use quartz, but iPhones use MEMS clocks, even though they both use general MEMS silicon?

Correct. MEMS technology is used in the accelerometers and gyros in the inertial measurement units (IMUs) that are in pretty much every smartphone. Apple decided to switch to using MEMS clocks, probably because it means that they can reduce part count slightly as it would mean that they can incorporate them on the same chip as the CPU or the like.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Gotcha. Ok. This article makes a whole lot more sense now. Thank you!!

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

You're very welcome!

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Wasn't this exact scenario posted to r/talesfromtechsupport a few years ago? It sounds very familiar

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago

This article is from 2018.

[–] [email protected] 44 points 1 month ago (1 children)

[…] so why were only Apple phones affected?

The answer, it seems, is because Apple recently defected from traditional quartz-based clocks in its phones in favor of clocks that are also made of MEMS silicon. Given that clocks are the most critical device in any computer and are necessary to make the CPU function, their disruption with helium atoms is enough to crash the device. 

In this case, the leaking helium from the MRI machine infiltrated the iPhones like a “tiny grain of sand” and caused the MEMS clocks to go haywire.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 month ago (1 children)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microelectromechanical_system_oscillator

Interesting

MEMS oscillators incorporate MEMS resonators, which are microelectromechanical structures that define stable frequencies. MEMS clock generators are MEMS timing devices with multiple outputs for systems that need more than a single reference frequency. MEMS oscillators are a valid alternative to older, more established quartz crystal oscillators, offering better resilience against vibration and mechanical shock, and reliability with respect to temperature variation.

So the helium causes physical interference by leaking into the housing?

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Yup. Helium is such a tiny thing it can diffuse through almost anything, and in MEMS oscillators which are supposed to be at a rock solid 32kHz, causes variance in the frequency eventually just "gumming" it up entirely and causing it to stop working.

If you want to know how and why, Applied Science did a video on it. Five years ago. Because that's when this leak happened.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago

Yup. Most of the mems devices will essentially shut down the device if they go out of tolerance. This is a pretty common-knowledge fact among folks who work with large magnets, or with helium or hydrogen gas.

Funnily enough, it also happens with equipment microcontrollers which are unlikely to have a MEMS unit in them -- for instance, any benchtop centrifuge made after the mid-90s will shut down, and I'm pretty sure those are still on quartz clocks. It also effects things like on-chip thermometers.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago

the fate worse than quenching.

and now I'm imagining Siri speaking in a very high-pitched voice.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 month ago (1 children)

By Daniel Oberhaus October 30, 2018, 5:20pm

🤨

Yet both Android and Apple phones use MEMS silicon for their devices, so why were only Apple phones affected?

Glad I've got an Android since I could potentially work with liquid Hydrogen...

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Hydrogen

This says that hydrogen isn't just a problem, just helium:

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/669763/why-is-a-mems-device-affected-by-helium-but-not-hydrogen

It seems that MEMS is very sensitive to helium, but only helium. This Link stated that hydrogen does not affect MEMS, which surprised me.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago

Can't speak for MEMS specifically, but it absolutely can make chips shut down whole instruments by changing their properties. It intercalates slower, but has much the same effect once it's in there.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago

Oh derp

[–] [email protected] 30 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Helium doesn't just kill apple devices, It kills anything with a MEMS oscillator. Helium atoms are so small that it's impossible to make a seal that completely blocks them.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago

Well that's not true. It's just a real bitch. As a welder, helium leak check is about the toughest damn QC to pass. Most welding QC has some reasonable margin for error during inspection, but the damn helium doesn't care. You can have a beautiful weld with a tiny imperfection at the start or end and it'll piss helium just as badly as an entirely scuffed bead.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Hmm.

That seems like it'd open a lot of potential abuses.

I wonder what the failure mode of various electronic locks is when they're exposed to helium?

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 month ago (3 children)

If you are in a position where you can dump random gases into the air supply to the degree it impacts these devices then they are likely compromised in other ways as well.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago (2 children)

You don't necessarily need to put it into the air supply, could just bathe the specific device you want disabled in helium from a deodorant can or something

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

If you are close enough to spray a device you are close enough to just steal it. Or spray the owner.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

If it's bolted to a wall and unattended neither of those things are an option

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

If y9ou are close enough to a system of importance that you can spray it, you are close enough to compromise it in countless other ways.

This is just one of many physical access attacks. Just like "you could take a hammer to it"

Like, I know people want to think this is some Ocean's Eleven heist waiting to happen. It isn't. This is only viable if you can drench an area with helium (which means you can already gas everyone you care about) or you have such close physical access that there are so many other things you could do. At best it is an episode of Burn Notice where Michael has to rapidly improvise an escape where his CIA handler of the week already refused to give him something much more useful.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

Just because you can take a hammer to it doesn't mean that's the best solution

In the right situation I imagine it could be a useful tool, much more subtle than just smashing the thing, less time consuming than taking it apart

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Is helium used in deodorants these days?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

Not that I know of, I meant it could be put in a pressurised spray bottle, for example a deodorant can

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago

a very small percentage of helium will disable the phone

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I don't know about that. It seemed to have a pretty rapid impact on the phone in that video, and it's not like those are exactly open. And they weren't pressurizing it.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

Helium is tiny, and will diffuse though pretty much anything other than continuous welded metal pipe very very quickly. The elastomer seals on a phone would slow it down slightly, but the article's from 2018, before so many phones were watertight. I remember my old iPhone had a little piezo cooling fan in one of the grates on the bottom, so helium would have no trouble at all.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago

Lock picking lawyer gonna have to get on this