this post was submitted on 09 Apr 2024
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Science Memes

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I like piezoelectrics and kinetic generators. The only two methods of generating electricity I know of that don't involve steam other than solar panels.

At least, I think they're different... Is a standard copper wire+magnet generator pizeoelectric? Or is it simply the operation is similar in that you generate electricity from moving things together? Like the difference between tiny little things in your shirt that generate electricity as you move around vs those flash lights you shake to charge.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

They’re different. The piezoelectric effect converts pressure to charge. However steam is just kinetic with an extra step

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

Piezoelectric effect is when you vibrate certain crystals and they give off electricity. It's also reversible. You can feed them electricity to generate sound. The beep-boop sound from small electronic devices is usually from a piezo speaker, because they're dirt cheap.

You don't get significant amounts of power out of it, though.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yeah it’s quartz lol

Also photovoltaic is reversible as well! Put light in get current out, put current in, get light out. But the diodes that get good light for the currents we use are shit for generating the current we like from the light we have and vice versa. Also! Most diodes are these types! That’s why we make their casing black, otherwise the light will interfere with computation!

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[–] [email protected] 37 points 1 year ago (1 children)
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[–] [email protected] 63 points 1 year ago (6 children)

That's why Photovoltaic Cells got the Nobel Prize, imo. The only new way to generate electricity actually put to use AFAIK.

Of course it's completely inefficient at large scale and they just revert back to mirroring light into a collection tower where steam happens.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 year ago (4 children)

There’s also wind. But that just skips the steam

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago

Cost per MWh is what tends to matter more than efficiency. Photovoltaics have become dirt cheap. Mirror collection systems haven't been able to keep up, and the projects for them are basically defunct at this point.

Was worth trying, though. It wasn't obvious that photovoltaics would get so damn cheap 10 or 20 years ago.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Is it that they're inefficient or harder to maintain?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Yes. Heliostat's max efficiency estimates are like 70%, sun tracking panels 40%, static panels 20%.

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[–] [email protected] 49 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Wasn't the main appeal of the mirror installations that you can store the heat somewhat efficiently? Rooftop solar is cost effective even here in Germany, where darkness and shadows loom around every corner.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago

The nonchalant poetry of your reply made me look up and appreciate your username.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

These numbers change every year, but: solar panels on roofs don't track so they'd be lucky to get 20%, average closer to 12%, efficiency and slowly degrade over a few years. Sun tracking panels can reach a maximum of around 40%, theoretically, but on average more like 20%-30%. You have to subtract the negative impact of creating and assembling the materials from it's lifetime effectiveness, in Germany I believe Hydrogen Steel exists which is much greener than other types of smelting, or otherwise Aluminum is the higher grade material used for such things, and Photovoltaic Panels have a very specialized Glass in most cases that has to be exceptionally clear and strong. If the capacitance of the system is not enough to hold the produced power then an electrical failure will occur, so you must also include large commercial and industrial batteries.

Meanwhile, a Heliostat (a Collection Tower and Mirror Array) out in the desert has a theoretical efficiency just below 70%. Furthermore, if the capacity of the grid fills up then the array can be disable by adjusting the mirrors and excess power can be stored for extremely long periods of time by utilizing molten salt beneath the tower.

These efficiency numbers refer to how much of the heat energy from full spectrum light hitting the array is converted into electricity. Home panels are nice because you can put them on your home

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

it's both, but i'm not sure if these large solar concentrators (ivanpah or these things in spain) are more efficient than current pv panels

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I mean, if they're dramatically cheaper, they don't have to be efficient.

That being said, solar cells get around 20% efficiency, steam generators maybe 50% on a good day, subtract the reflection, collection and storage inefficiencies and you might get roughly in the same ballpark as solar cells.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Non-tracking solar panels are closer to 12% actual efficiency, 20% would be a theoretical efficiency. I only mention this because you used an actual efficiency estimate for the steam generator but not the solar panel.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago

That's because I'm so smart I completely ignored that the sun moves around during the day.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

great for satellites tho

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