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The Pegasus (TNG S7E12) ruined star trek for me. What's your view on that ep? (en.wikipedia.org)

submitted 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

42 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Ok, me and my wife are doing a re watch. I loved TNG and other Star Trek growing up, future is made great through tech, utopia is possible, go humanity, etc.

Wife's watching the series. I dip in from time to time, I know some spoilers and how some characters are, but can't remember a single plot all the way through. We watched the Pegasus (S7E12).

Like, it completely ruined Star Trek. Humanity and the federations before that point are going into all interactions with aliens, and we always assume they're the good guys, always acting on good faith, the frustrations they have with other species is because the other species don't believe how nice they can be, earth has no problems of racism or hunger or fucking whatever.

And then, no, we have clandestine , backstabbing stuff, fully known by the federation, covered up, everyone hushed, the research discontinued, but searched for so it can be dug up again. That research, which was done in direct, knowing violation of a peace treaty they cobbled together with the Romulans, which have been the semi bad guys in various episodes.

Well, if the fucking federation are known, lying backstabbing, black ops using, pride and wrath addled assholes, I also would look at them with distrust. No wonder the Ferengi don't want to join the Federation, of course the Cardassians are attacking on the borders.

Every time they go to a space bar and dig around for information, all the other aliens are wearing some personable clothing with their own customs and history woven into the fabric, when these squares rock up wearing a space potato sack, talking about the greater good. Fuck off you Maoist assholes.

I love the series and the morals, but the worldbuilding is fucking destroyed with this episode. I assume this is what gives way to the section 31 film and all that.

I'd love to hear some counterarguments. I loved seeing Star Trek as a utopia, and with humanity being their best with great leadership. I want to go back to that point of view.

PS : Also, Picard says to decloak right in front of the romulan warbird, then they never show that conversation. I want to know how he talked his way out of that one, and the rammifications. We're about to watch sub rosa, and I am looking forward to the source of all the beverly ghost fucker memes.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 days ago (1 children)

You... Should watch Star Trek more throughly.

There have been plenty of episodes like Pegasus well before Pegasus. An easy one that comes to mind is a pretty famous one: The Drumhead.

In Star Trek the United Federation of Planets have built themselves a utopia. And yet they still have enemies, they still have wars. Star Trek doesn't just show Humans being in this utopia, but also the vigilance towards keeping it that way.

The Pegasus is a great example of some part of Starfleet sliding back, but then the crew of the Enterprise D taking the high road and upholding the morals they believe in. The morals that makes the UFP a utopia.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

You… Should watch Star Trek more throughly.

Yep, I could definately do with more.

There have been plenty of episodes like Pegasus well before Pegasus. An easy one that comes to mind is a pretty famous one: The Drumhead.

Will try to get to that one sometime, from the synopsis though, it seems the corruption/maleficence is just bound to the antagonist du jour , and not completely systematic, but will need to watch the ep. Thank you.

In Star Trek the United Federation of Planets have built themselves a utopia. And yet they still have enemies, they still have wars. Star Trek doesn’t just show Humans being in this utopia, but also the vigilance towards keeping it that way.

The Pegasus is a great example of some part of Starfleet sliding back, but then the crew of the Enterprise D taking the high road and upholding the morals they believe in. The morals that makes the UFP a utopia.

Great viewpoint. thank you for sharing it with me.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

I see this as an episode about humans being… human. That despite significant advances in human civilization towards a socialist utopia, there is still greed and a lust for power in humanity, and that strong steps still need to be taken to blunt those evils.

Picard decloaking in front of the Romulans may not have translated well to Romulan mores, but it’s an attempt to re-establish trust, a way of saying, “we don’t tolerate shit like this, and here is us exposing this malfeasance to prove our dedication to being honest.”

I mean, the Romulans will most certainly assume the worst, because they will project onto humans that which they are most likely to do themselves. But at least Picard is holding true to what the Federation stands for, which means airing dirty laundry such that the Federation can learn from it.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

I see this as an episode about humans being… human. That despite significant advances in human civilization towards a socialist utopia, there is still greed and a lust for power in humanity, and that strong steps still need to be taken to blunt those evils.

Yeah, that's why knowing there are some black ops (illegal infiltration of cardassians, bending the rules on the prime directive) seemed "ok ish" , but this time it wasn't an isolated case or someone's gone rouge, or one writer making a shitty episode. This one was whole cloth, institutionalised , embedded, wholesale corrupt , dishonest and breaking treaties actions taken by all levels of federation leadership, and the creative team coming on board with "yeah, federation aren't all that they seem".

Picard decloaking in front of the Romulans may not have translated well to Romulan mores, but it’s an attempt to re-establish trust, a way of saying, “we don’t tolerate shit like this, and here is us exposing this malfeasance to prove our dedication to being honest.”

I mean, the Romulans will most certainly assume the worst, because they will project onto humans that which they are most likely to do themselves. But at least Picard is holding true to what the Federation stands for, which means airing dirty laundry such that the Federation can learn from it.

great perspective

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

but this time it wasn't an isolated case or someone's gone rouge, […]. This one was whole cloth, institutionalised , embedded, wholesale corrupt , dishonest and breaking treaties actions taken by all levels of federation leadership,

Except… was it?

It’s been a while since I watched that episode, but my memory and impressions was that of the Admiral (then Captain) having this as a pet project. As in, an extremely limited skunkworks project that was heavily siloed away from the rest of the Federation command structure.

It’s only when the ship was at risk of being discovered that the cover-up expanded. And with that Admiral still in the pole position, calling the shots. So it still appears to be of limited scope/corruption.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

https://lemmy.world/post/30261184/17288875

PICARD: You know, it wasn’t easy to get this record. I had to pull in quite a few favours at Starfleet just to get a look at it. It seems that it was classified by Starfleet Intelligence.

 later

PICARD: The Judge Advocate also believes that the surviving officers are deliberately withholding vital information from this inquiry. Further investigation is recommended. Will, there was no further investigation. This report was classified and then it was quietly buried. Why?

RIKER: Sir, may I suggest you take this up with Admiral

PICARD: I’m taking this up with you, Will! The Judge Advocate thought you were participating in a conspiracy to cover up the truth. Now, what the hell is going on here, Will?

The judge advocate on the case is not in on the secret. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t go higher, but the conversation does imply that whoever was involved had limited authority to, say, prevent that inquiry in the first place, or to instruct the judge advocate to avoid sensitive topics.

  Someone did have the authority to classify and bury the report. Maybe that’s something the Chief of Intelligence could do unilaterally.)`

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I don't think the Pegasus plan involves all levels of Federation leadership. I think it's a conspiracy that, although it does include at least one of the highest-ranking Starfleet officers, doesn't go all the way to the top. From the transcript:

PRESSMAN: It's not just me, Will. The Chief of Starfleet Security has personally given me her assurance of complete support.

RIKER: Admiral Raner? How many other people know about this?

PRESSMAN: Not many, and it's up to us to make sure it stays that way. Raner has given me written orders for you.

Pressman says that a small number of people are involved. He doesn't mention the Federation president or any Federation officials outside of Starfleet (remember that Starfleet is the military-ish arm of the Federation, it's not the whole organization.) He only mentions one Starfleet officer.

Pressman emphasizes that it's important to keep the secret from getting out. Of course that's partly because he doesn't want the Romulans finding out. But I think it's mainly that the conspirators don't want to be held to account for unauthorized actions.

Later in the episode Pressman tells Picard, "the Chief of Starfleet Intelligence herself is watching this one". I think it's possible that Chief of Security and Chief of Intelligence are titles used interchangeably for the same office. Or it could be a second officer involved in the conspiracy.

There's also this conversation:

PICARD: You know, it wasn't easy to get this record. I had to pull in quite a few favours at Starfleet just to get a look at it. It seems that it was classified by Starfleet Intelligence.

[...]

PICARD: The Judge Advocate also believes that the surviving officers are deliberately withholding vital information from this inquiry. Further investigation is recommended. Will, there was no further investigation. This report was classified and then it was quietly buried. Why?

RIKER: Sir, may I suggest you take this up with Admiral

PICARD: I'm taking this up with you, Will! The Judge Advocate thought you were participating in a conspiracy to cover up the truth. Now, what the hell is going on here, Will?

The judge advocate on the case is not in on the secret. That doesn't mean it doesn't go higher, but the conversation does imply that whoever was involved had limited authority to, say, prevent that inquiry in the first place, or to instruct the judge advocate to avoid sensitive topics.

Someone did have the authority to classify and bury the report. Maybe that's something the Chief of Intelligence could do unilaterally.

Note that Picard is confident that with the secret exposed the project will be shut down. If it had been authorized at all levels you might expect it to continue, but out in the open.

Now Section 31, that does seem to be institutionalized so that's a different story.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago

There's a relevant episode if you don't mind DS9 spoilers:

DS9 spoilers

The DS9 episodes Homefront and Paradise Lost feature another conspiracy that looks to me to be similar in scale and position to the Pegasus conspiracy. Those episodes are very explicit about the separation of Starfleet and Federation leadership.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Please, do some sort of text based let's watch of Sub Rosa. Don't take time to recover, just post it, stream of consciousness

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago

I'd love to but we have little time with a baby, studying for certificates, exercise, couples time etc, but will tell you my thoughts since you're curious.

The wife and I thought the episode where she illegally disected the ferengi scientist was stupid, either from writing or character perspective, but it didn't ruin the show since it's one ep/character, so more stupid Beverly isn't going to be as bad for me as this one was.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 days ago

Sub Rosa always gets my nacelles humming and ready to warp.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago

He didn't have to talk his way out, the romulans got what they love: proof their enemy are actually all cheating liars.

That commander got some serious awards for that, it was a massive romulan victory, they'll be using it to show the federation are all worse cheats than everyone for centuries.

Also, you need to never watch in the pale moonlight.

Because you can't live with it...

[–] [email protected] 19 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I find Pegasus a decent episode. I think that while utopian aspiration is a fundamental tenet of Star Trek, I think it’s a bit reducto e to call it completely a show about perfect humans.

Heck, from the get go we had Garry Mitchell doing pyscho god stuff and Charlie X groping people, and a captain who sacrificed his crew to the weird space Romans so he would survive.

I think in truth, Star Trek is both about the best humanity can be and how the best in humanity can overcome the worst in humanity - you can’t exactly do that without episodes where the protagonists or the Federation makes mistakes, sometimes small and sometimes on the magnitude of Pegasus.

In many ways, DS9, darker as it is, feels the most Trek - a team of very different people with different beliefs overcoming/respecting their differences and forming a beautiful community despite the folly and evil around and within them.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I liked the eps where even, gasp! StarfleetOfficers! made errors. Example: the ep set at the Academy, when cadets learn about the no win scenario, not presented as a simulation, but as a moral decision in an emergency. IIRC "Measure of a Man"? The least irritating ep of Wesley growing up, without being coddled by the Enterprise crew. I thought the acting from the cadets was pretty good throughout.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

"The First Duty" was the Academy episode. "Measure of a Man" is the courtroom one where Data was going to be taken for research. "Your Honor, Starfleet was founded to seek out new life; well, there it sits! - Waiting."

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago

Thanks!

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago

That part of the peace treaty never made sense to me. Am I forbidden to research cloaking technology? Fuck them, guess what is the first thing I'm gonna figure out how it works and learn to make a much better one.

If they want I'll refrain from deploying it as long they behave.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 2 days ago (2 children)

But there was backstabby, clandestine stuff authorized by the federation before, in Chain of Command (S6E10&11) for example.

I have never understood the Federation and especially not Starfleet as perfect, and utopian only in comparison to our society. And neither could have ever been perfect, because Star Trek isn't about the far future and how it may be but about our society. It is social commentary and you cannot spin episodes about standing up to an imperfect government or society in a show with a perfect government and society.

(Also, I personally have always found it weird that both Klingons and Romulans had cloaking tech but Starfleet hadn't. I get it for storytelling, it is hard to write some stuff when you got cloaking and the obvious solution would be to get invisible and get out, but lorewise it's just stupid to go without such an impactful tech when the other two major powers in your quadrant have it.)

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

But there was backstabby, clandestine stuff authorized by the federation before, in Chain of Command (S6E10&11) for example.

Right. But it was also kinda like "we need to know this, if we don't entire planets could be at stake and this weapon is absurd", not "if we made this thing we made a commitment to not make, we will have the upper hand in a war that we are trying to avoid having, and making it will possibly CAUSE the war".

The motivation is shitty.

Also, I guess there was so much shit going on in the Chain of Command that some of that analysis had to be a given, since we were trying to understand why the old captain had to go on an action packed mission with the chief medical officer, and doing 90s action in a star trek way (Absailing! But with all the proper safety equipment!) , and if Jelico was an asshole or just doing things his way, both on the ship and with the Cardassians, etc etc.

I have never understood the Federation and especially not Starfleet as perfect, and utopian only in comparison to our society. And neither could have ever been perfect, because Star Trek isn’t about the far future and how it may be but about our society.

Every time they introduce the Federation to other species , be it on equal grounds or for acceptance to the Federation,it's always "We have outgrown greed and warfare, unified and are always acting for the good of everyone and forsaking bad things. Are you worthy to join our Federation, or are you a bunch of unevolved, stupid apes that don't deserve to be near us, you scumbags?" and it's really hard to see that as being genuine after "hell yeah, let's violate our treaty with the Romulans to get the tech we said we wouldn't get so that if we ever fight them, we'll be on top".

It is social commentary and you cannot spin episodes about standing up to an imperfect government or society in a show with a perfect government and society.

Right, those views are being tested in terms of "when you are a person of good moral character and can tell right from wrong, what do you do in this difficult situation", and it's assumed back home, those kinds of problems are never present, because of how awesome society has evolved; and it's up to our crew to behave according to those ideals to help make these other planets/species/whatever to also start living by those ideals.

It's difficult when starfleet does coverups instead of holding those principles to their heart and slamming this Admiral Erik Pressman directly into space jail forever. Because they started an investigation, then covered it up. It goes directly in the face of Picard's "Duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth!" speech; it seems that Picard is just one honest man in a sea of corruption, and the face of a less than stellar entity.

(Also, I personally have always found it weird that both Klingons and Romulans had cloaking tech but Starfleet hadn’t. I get it for storytelling, it is hard to write some stuff when you got cloaking and the obvious solution would be to get invisible and get out, but lorewise it’s just stupid to go without such an impactful tech when the other two major powers in your quadrant have it.)

I mean, if we look at it on a human timescale, there have been many wars fought with asymetrical technology, and it's "only" 200+ years into the future. I guess while the feds managed to invent warp drive, they still didn't figure out how to get to cloaking technology. The feds might have some tech the Klingons/Romulans don't.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Cloaking-wise, humanity was behind. The workaround of the Treaty of Algeron just adds a narrative twist, holding back the greater principles of the Federation. Of course certain parties still tried to develop the tech (I assume through reverse engineering captured wessels from either faction).

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Still doesn't make sense to concede such tech, even or especially when you're behind others. It's just that much of a game changer.
Also, it's not really the point of my comment but a side note.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 days ago

Just a stop-gap to prevent a war, which still happened eventually by DS9. Was only looking to address that end of the comment. The corruption part, we both know fairly well.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I have this crazy headcannon that the stuff we see on the show is propaganda for the federation; and while it portrays this utopian ideal of a post-economic paradise, but was something far more sinister.

Imagine, if you will, that the Federation is rather more authoritarian. sinister and evil.

I mean, why do you think they don't care about TOS Redshirts, the engineers and doctors, all the people who die because they can't be bothered to install seatbelts and surge protectors? just population control.

"exploration" ships that have combat parity with multiple warships of the next most powerful factions? Children and families on those "exploration" ships as sentient shields? also excess-population control. and excellent propaganda.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Sure, most narration is unreliable and it's difficult to imagine an organization so advanced as to be so consistently incompetent... damn. Got me questioning if the Prime universe Starfleet are the baddies.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago

really has you thinking, doesn't it?

[–] [email protected] 23 points 2 days ago

The less said about the s31 film, the better.

DS9-era s31 plot lines were legit because it was pointedly asking the question, and doing it well. The movie was just… I mean, as far as I can tell, it was an infantile cash grab.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Picard knows this could become a massive incident and it goes above his pay grade as a starfleet captain to try and explain a situation he himself doesn't know the whole story about and kind of just fell into. He wants to get out of there without triggering a war. It's a great response. Let the admirals or Federation Ambassadors figure this out. They are the ones that created this mess.

Also more practically I bet they didn't have the runtime to add that conversation into the episode. Would have been at least a minute.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 days ago

They could have cut the entire scene of Riker in sickbay with a broken rib. We know he's flustered and distracted, but I suppose we needed to ensure Beverly has something to do in the episode.

[–] [email protected] 62 points 2 days ago (2 children)

If that was too much skullduggery for your taste then you really shouldn't watch Deep Space Nine.

Computer, delete that entire personal log.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 days ago

Oh, you know that’s right.

(I love DS9 so much though…)

[–] [email protected] 28 points 2 days ago

In the Pale Moonlight was such a goddamn great episode though.

its such a goddamn great episode that all it took was for you to reference to deleting the entire personal log for me to immediately know what you're talking about.

its such a goddamn great episode that I actually know the name of the damn episode.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

What ruins this episode for me is that it's canonically

Enterprise spoiler in case someone still hasn't seen it.

Riker does his stupid holodeck episode for Enterprise's Finale.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 days ago (2 children)

I need to rinse my brain with some TOS after being reminded of that. Still appreciate you bringing it up, but just... ew.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

whispers into your ear

Decon gel.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I'd say no problem anytime but somehow that's not appropriate for this context.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 days ago

[–] [email protected] 43 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I’m sorry to hear that. I think it’s one of TNG‘s better episodes.

As for why it seemed to ruined it for you, that humanity in the future was some perfect utopia, there were dozens of episodes before that season six episode you referenced, that show star Fleet and the Federation is less-than-perfect.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 2 days ago (2 children)

I'm knee deep into a TOS run, and let me tell you, the number of corrupted captains meddling with pre-warp cultures is astounding.

It's one thing to say that humanity largely got its collective shit together. It's another to expect that mentality to be wholly shared and maintained, especially once presented with the notion of an entire galaxy to explore or exploit. That there are still those trying to uphold greater moral and ethical standards while being open to new ideas is what makes Trek... fascinating.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Don’t even get me started on “badmirals”

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago

Nechayevvvv! :::waves fist at the sky:::

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago

If you're okay with reading Star Trek novels, "Prime Directive" is a great one, and really goes into detail on the grayness of having such a simple rule (that no one can or does follow well). And this time it was totally accidental (I guess they often are) but with big consequences to main TOS characters.