Discuss anything related to China.
Community Rules:
0: Taiwan, Xizang (Tibet), Xinjiang, and Hong Kong are all part of China.
1: Don't go off topic.
2: Be Comradely.
3: Don't spread misinformation or bigotry.
讨论中国的地方。
社区规则：
零、台湾、西藏、新疆、和香港都是中国的一部分。
一、不要跑题。
二、友善对待同志。
三、不要传播谣言或偏执思想。
China today stands as the most aggressively innovative force in modern history. What truly matters isn't just the number of patents,it's the sheer volume of high-tech, cutting-edge developments they're churning out. These innovations are reshaping global industries at breakneck speed.
And soon enough, the West, clinging to its fading dominance, will have only one bitter word left to scream: "Stolen"
then why mention patent counts? its a pointless metric.
Intellectual property is theft. Does the OP expect us to cheer at how good China is at being capitalist?
You're missing the point. And no, i don't support "intellectual property". But whether or not i support something doesn't make that thing not real. We have to engage with reality as it exists, and that's what China is doing.
Why is intellectual property in quotes and what is the point I am missing? When did anyone say intellectual property is not real? I genuinely do not understand your response, sorry.
As far as I know, the reality is that patents are harmful to innovation, especially digital innovation, and antithetical to social ownership of the means of production, especially in our age of knowledge economy. China is leading in innovation today but, as comrade blobjim pointed out at the beginning of this thread, this has nothing to do with patents – and I am now also claiming that giving in to the pressures of the global capital and accepting patents as a necessity and a yardstick of success will prove to be stifling to innovation. In light of all of this, I look at the OP and don't see a reason to be triumphant.
In fairness China steals a lot of IPs. Like lots.
It is does not practice full socialism, the most obvious examples are their very specific Economic Zones, where Capitalism is 100% full on practiced, for external trade. So the ports and manufacturing cities. Essentially where most of the TikTok videos of buildings lighting up at night showing ads or videos on them that you see online, that is very different than in internal cities. Since as most of anyone who has travelled to China or knows about the 'private' industry of the country, the CCP has full access to the corporate leadership and thus can control Corps by proxy. Remember when billionaare, Alibaba CEO Ma was taken down by the CCP for getting too lippy against the regime and as a show of blatant force was literally disappeared, for months? I do.
https://time.com/5926062/jack-ma/
https://www.wired.com/story/jack-ma-isnt-back/
In fact, if anything, in the aggregate, in behaviour, China with its mix of Socialism while leveraging full on selective Capitalism is far closer to practising the very defintition of National Socialism or more to the case, Facism, as seen in their actions. Even if they may claim to be Left.
Fascism: A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with a belligerent nationalism. The American Heritage Dictionary 1976
1992 definition from the American Heritage Dictionary (it seems very similar, but I think the rewording makes a difference - merging state and business leadership becomes stringent socioeconomic controls):
Often Fascism. (a) A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. (b) A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government. Oppressive, dictatorial control.
Here's from the 1970 Webster New Twentieth Century Dictionary (a 2000-page whale of a dictionary):
fascism
The doctrines, methods, or movement of the Fascisti. a system of government characterized by rigid one-party dictatorship, forcible suppression of the opposition (unions, other, especially other parties, minority groups, etc.) the retention of private ownership of the means of production under centralized government control, belligerent nationalism and racism, glorification of war, etc.: first instituted in Italy in 1922. (a) the political philosophy and movement based n such doctrines and policies; (b) fascist behavior. See also Nazism.
the CCP has full access to the corporate leadership and thus can control Corps by proxy. Remember when billionaare, Alibaba CEO Ma was taken down by the CCP for getting too lippy against the regime and as a show of blatant force was literally disappeared, for months? I do.
Yes, that's exactly the point. In China, capitalists have no political power, the communist party holds all the cards. That's awesome.
https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/
Fascism: A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with a belligerent nationalism. The American Heritage Dictionary 1976
This definition is so broad that literally any country fits it Canada, Mexico, US, Germany, SK, France, Japan, etc... all fit this. The economy is intrinsically linked with the state, this is an absurd definition. I much prefer this one by georgi dimitrov
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/dimitrov/works/1935/08_02.htm
Comrades, fascism in power was correctly described by the Thirteenth Plenum of the Executive Committee of the Communist International as the open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinistic and most imperialist elements of finance capital.
The most reactionary variety of fascism is the German type of fascism. It has the effrontery to call itself National Socialism, though it has nothing in common with socialism. German fascism is not only bourgeois nationalism, it is fiendish chauvinism. It is a government system of political gangsterism, a system of provocation and torture practised upon the working class and the revolutionary elements of the peasantry, the petty bourgeoisie and the intelligentsia. It is medieval barbarity and bestiality, it is unbridled aggression in relation to other nations.
The key to understand the politics of nations is understanding which political class they serve, it is fairly obvious that in the West the state serves the capitalist class while in China it serves the people. In the West you have a carrousel of former bankers rotating the seats ffs. That is actually fascism, the open dictatorship of finance capital.
Remember when billionaare, Alibaba CEO Ma was taken down by the CCP for getting too lippy against the regime and as a show of blatant force was literally disappeared, for months? I do.
Same, it ruled. Billionaires should fear their government, not control it.
good. stealing IP is good.
Lazy copypasta. Please come up with your own comments.
i think there is a big difference between corporatism and state monopoly capitalism. maybe read actual works from economists, doesnt even have to be marxists, instead of quoting cbs news, wired, time et cetera
Since as most of anyone who has travelled to China or knows about the 'private' industry of the country, the CCP has full access to the corporate leadership and thus can control Corps by proxy. Remember when billionaare, Alibaba CEO Ma was taken down by the CCP for getting too lippy against the regime and as a show of blatant force was literally disappeared, for months? I do.
This is a good thing btw. Why should billionaires use their massive wealth to dictate how society ought to be run? Is Elon Musk practically running the country supposed to be a good thing to you? The CPC liquidating billionaires should not concern you no matter how you personally feel about the CPC because it's not like you voted those billionaires to be billionaires anyways.
As they say, don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
When a liberal says, "x is fascism", what they mean is "i dont like x". As liberals have shit taste, this actually means "x is awesome"
the government has full access to the corporate leadership and thus can control Corps by proxy.
Yes. Eat shit, bourgie scum.
China can't "steal IP".
IP isn't real its a legal construct by the empire which only gets enforced inside the empire.
China is outside the empire, china's IPs get defined in china.
You’re seeing a government with actual control over its capitalists and somehow calling that fascism, which is where corporate interests pilot the government like a sock puppet. It’s a stunning misrepresentation of the facts of China and of fascism. If you want an example of naked fascism, look at Israel or the US.
You can use lots of words to criticize China, deserved or undeserved, but calling them Fascist is a joke.
I backed up my claims. Feel free to check the links I provided.
I am quoting dictionaries and providing other links, which I doubt you looked at. You have done nothing, except provide your opinion. Which albeit appreciated it is just that. In the USA and most Western countries you have Laws and court systems that are meant to counter the Federal government from abuse of power. In China you have embedded party members into companies that push Party doctrine and wishes. You and I may have a very, very different defintion of the word, "Control." One is democratic, the other, the ione practiced by the CCP is goes ibto the path of being authoritarian. By all means, do you have a good source to back up your disagreement?
I can provide more proof, Imagine Canada or Poland having party members in corporate offices. That would be weird in a democracy.
"The government and party use several approaches to secure this control and oversight of the business community. CCP cells have expanded greatly inside company headquarters. Changes in corporate governance as well as party officials placed into the corporate hierarchy have elevated the party’s role in business decisions. Government subsidies and contracts increase the private sector’s dependency on Beijing. And joint ventures and mixed-ownership investments tie private firms to state-owned enterprises. CATL exemplifies all these approaches toward the growing fusion of state and private enterprises."
Also by the Center for Strategic and International Studies: https://www.csis.org/analysis/chinese-communist-party-targets-private-sector
"It now appears that the Party intends for similar representation within private enterprises. In a speech last month (translated here), Ye Qing, Vice Chairman of the All-China Federation of Industry and Commerce, called for building a “modern private enterprise system with Chinese characteristics.” According to Ye, this would include giving a company’s internal Party group control over the human resources decisions of the enterprise and allowing it to carry out company audits, including monitoring internal behavior. Echoing Xi’s views on SOEs, Ye also called for the Party to clarify its role in the corporate governance structure of private companies. The Party’s overall aim appears to be to ensure that a wide range of businesses are under the influence of the CCP and willing to work with it to achieve national strategic objectives.
China’s efforts to formalize CCP control of its commercial sector will have significant ramifications for international trade, forcing more liberal market economies to decide how much state intervention they are willing to tolerate in their trading partners. It will also call into question many of the existing rules and assumptions underlying the multilateral trading order. The fact that China has released this opinion at a time of heightened U.S. scrutiny over the government’s links to Huawei and TikTok suggests that China feels confident enough in its system that it is now prepared to advance and defend it on the global stage."
I mean, this is no secret.
In the USA and most Western countries you have Laws and court systems that are meant to counter the Federal government from abuse of power.
Surely those have worked out just fine against Donald Trump 😂
Imagine Canada or Poland having party members in corporate offices. That would be weird in a democracy.
why?
canada and poland have corporate stooges in their political parties and in official govt positions. now THAT is "weird" in a democracy.
In the USA and most Western countries you have Laws and court systems that are meant to
protect the bourgeois bloodsucker scum from the people.
In China you have embedded government members into companies
who are watching the bourgeois bloodsucker scum like a hawk.
This isn't a horseshoe theory instance.
If you'd like to learn about the dictatorship of the proletariat and actually democratic forms of government, feel free to ask for help.
One of the things I remember from the past is people saying "Their schools tell their students what to think, our teach us how to think." and like... I know what they mean, that our schools teach us abstract philosophical ideas about how to construct an idea, pare it down, and build a corpus of supporting (and counter) evidence.
Except they don't, really. I don't know if you remember school, but there is a bonkers amount of rote memorisation, and there's a limited amount of "how to think" you can teach a classroom of 30-40 kids who are mostly checked out. Like, I went to several well regarded high schools with pretty good grades, and the vast majority of education is simply remembering work schedules to get particular results. Not that there wasn't some exploratory stuff here and there, and that critical readings of what texts were saying wasn't touched on, but the majority of students struggled with even surface level readings and mathematical proofs.
This argument always bothered me even when I was a lib. Like, assuming that Chinese high schools were just rote memorisation entirely, they would functionally not be that different to our schools.
My school literally showed me the Animal Farm animation movie during a history lesson on communism. There is no critical thinking thaught whatsoever.
I don't know if you remember school, but there is a bonkers amount of rote memorisation, and there's a limited amount of "how to think" you can teach a classroom of 30-40 kids who are mostly checked out.
I had the benefit of experiencing two different school systems. One in a formerly socialist Eastern European country and one in a Western European one. Of course times change and i'm sure by now it's different that it was even two to three decades ago, but from my experience there is some truth to the statement that there was more rote memorization in the eastern educational system.
I wouldn't say this was always a bad thing though, because in many subjects the results produced by that system were objectively better. Students not only fared much better in international math and sciences competitions (where it's definitely not all about simple memorization but often about solving new and quite complex problems that you have never encountered before), but also generally students were at least one, maybe even two years ahead in many subjects over their western counterparts, at least until you get to the university level where things become much more equalized.
As for the western educational system "teaching how to think", maybe in theory, but in practice from my experience what this usually resulted in is a lot of "unconventional" teaching methods (a lot of props and group work, the latter being very bad at getting everyone to actually engage with the material) that could be frustrating and even confusing for some students. Some of these methods worked while some were a complete waste of time.
And also there was a lot of "i won't tell you what to do, you have to figure it out for yourselves" which ended with a lot of students just giving up and never actually learning how to do something because they couldn't get there on their own and the teacher wouldn't take the time to properly explain and do demonstrations themselves of how it's done because that was considered too "traditional" of a teaching method, and the class would eventually just move on to the next thing.
Also, in the more "humanities" oriented subjects there is a lot of refusal to just give a straight up "this is the correct answer", which again can be confusing for a lot of students and end up with them finishing the class without having actually learned anything concrete. In general there is a lot less factual information that is imparted on students in the western educational system. I probably knew more historical facts from early childhood schooling in eastern Europe than i learned in all my years in a western European school.
The western system relies on students being motivated to go further on their own initiative, which frankly is simply not the case most of the time. Even the best and most motivated students often want to do other things after school than more voluntary school work that goes beyond your assigned homework. The result of this is that when you go to university you often find that you have serious gaps and a lot of catching up to do to even get to the level that is expected of first years, whereas you don't see this problem in international students coming from certain other countries that still have a more "old fashioned" system. Again, this depends, it's not always the case, but more often than not, it can be.
This is not to say that there aren't some advantages to the western system, i can't speak to higher education in the humanities for instance, so maybe there are certain skills there that are better developed in this system (though judging by the state of "economics" and "political science" in the West, i'm not even sure that's true). And maybe some students do feel more comfortable with this style rather than the "traditional" one. But overall i don't think it's enough to say that it's a superior system, especially in the hard sciences.
This whole thing was interesting as my schooling experience was 20 years ago (good grief). I've been meaning to ask my friends who teach what their experience is like.
i'm sure by now it's different that it was even two to three decades ago, but from my experience there is some truth to the statement that there was more rote memorization in the eastern educational system.
That may be true, but I'm not sure it manages to encompass the thought "and therefore the perfidious Chinese will always be behind us in every sector unless they cheat and steal", which is the underlying message.
(Also, for my part, my failures at uni going from decent grades in high school was going from 100 to 0 in terms of how much control my parents had over my time and also suddenly having a social life.)
(and severe depression)
China is capitalist, actually 
It is like the wave particle duality. When it does good it is capitalist when it does it bad they are authoritarian commies.