Ask Lemmy

"All men are created equal"

IS SLAVE STATE

Always has been

No, you're right to feel that way. While most Americans aren't terrible people, enough of us are that we allowed fascism to take over and we will have to carry that shame with us for the rest of our lives. It Happened Here.

What you're feeling is rationality. Nationalism is an extension of basic primal instinct humans have developed to protect their tribe, but it is only detrimental to modern life.

However you feel is not "wrong", and in this case pretty understandable.

Here in Australia I don't have a problem with the flag itself, but there seems to be a strong correlation with people putting flags on their cars and being racist assholes.

Totally healthy! I started that when my friends died in Iraq or came back without limbs and sustaining life long trauma. But newbies always welcome 😁

this is what free speech is all about, you should never feel wrong for feeling gross about how your country is fucking up

Tbh I think flag hate or angst is about as useful/less as flag worship. If you need something to be preoccupied with, why not make it a problem you can put that energy into doing something about where you live - like homeless people or food aid.

I might be reacting this way because I've been getting recent emails from my college about changing the school mascot, which is a "pioneer". When I was there I don't remember even being aware that there was a mascot. But apparently they think "pioneer" might be too closely associated with colonialism and they've decided this is an important issue. My attitude is create a Native American scholarship (or anything that actually does something) - don't obsess on imagery.

I'm with you. I'm on vacation in a foreign country. There was a performance and part of it was asking the crowd where they were from. I felt no enthusiasm when the performer asked the crowd to cheer if they were from the USA. It felt shameful.

In my opinion, true patriotism requires being critical of your nation. A patriot doesn't blindly let their nation go to hell. The Republicans that have take the word "patriot" are not patriots, in my opinion. They've ruined the word. A patriot wants to find the issues with their nation and improve them, not yell about being the best and to ignore everything wrong.

Basically, yes. I feel the same as you about the flag, but because it's been used as a symbol of blind faith, not patriotism. I feel patriotic pride in being critical, not in saying a pledge or anything like that.

I dont think these meets my standards for ask lemmy. Just throwing that out there.

No

No

If you think every time you see the US flag the person with it is a fascist get off the internet for a while. Most people are not nazis.

I hate even dressing up on July 4th for fear of looking like a capitol raiding moron. It didn't use to be like this, and frankly, it's depressing as fuck. I used to be very proud of my nation, and the progress we'd made in my short lifespan. We legalized gay marriage, elected a black president, tried to get healthcare for all (didn't work and we all know why), but I genuinely felt optimistic about our nation and the future. 4 years of Trump did a number on my sense of patriotism, and were only 1 months in to Trump 2.0 and he's dealt a knockout blow to it. I genuinely cringe seeing any amount of national pride now.

The American flag has become more a symbol of nationalism to me than a symbol of patriotism. It represents everything I hate about my country, and none of the things I love.

For me it's been longer than that. I am a queer Canadian and anytime I have travelled the US or stayed with friends and seen any group carrying or wearing American flags that hasn't given me the "ick" so much as rung alarm bells that those people are not safe.

Thing is, it's the same thing with the Canadian flag. Any group flying too many Canadian flags outside of Canada Day is likely to be Conservative and anti-queer. Anti-Trans protesters or anti-vaxxers on highway overpasses? Canadian flag. Lifted truck soaring down the highway with a "Fuck Trudeau" bumper sticker - Canada flag. Hoard of protesters demanding book bans, group of people protesting Pride with a "you are gunna burn pedos" sign, antiDEI crusader mob - Canadian flag. It doesn't take long before one starts to draw certain conclusions about a person's character when they wave it around. For those of us trans folk who can it's a sign to hide. A literal red flag.

Amoungst the left up here the flag is a complicated symbol. Many of us on the West Coast see it as a symbol of colonial practice and an insensitive declaration of an occupying nation on stolen territory for people who are still here and whose original sovereignty is still not properly acknowledged. It's not a symbol of pride and if personally used as such it's a sign of insensitivity and work to be done. At the same time I would not say that I am not proud of my Country for how far we've come. We are a nation in therapy who has the opportunity to put the work in to getting over some really bad murderous and selfish flaws and try new things to make things right. When I had an American friend up here it took a bit for him to understand how seriously the effort is to recon with our past and he treated us like a utopia of leftist sentiment but it is like therapy, yeah we might be putting the work in - but we can see how much further we need to go and praise doesn't hit us as "job well done" it's a reminder of how shitty it still is. But if anyone ever thinks that this complicated and nuanced relationship to country would stop us from rallying together to fight to preserve our rights to keep working towards that better future they would be dead wrong.

So I understand pretty well where you're coming from but for a lot of us this isn't a particularly new thing. It just is affecting more and more people as they wake up to realizing how these symbols are used.

Welcome to the club. People from other countries have these thoughts for some time already.

I am a US citizen but have been living abroad for the last 4.5 years. I can get by with Norwegian language but didn’t really feel hyper compelled to speak it all the time as English is spoken widely and well here. But especially since the inauguration it’s like, I don’t want strangers to realise that not only am I a foreigner, I’m an American. I try to be a good ambassador through my actions and words, but there’s only so much I can do to distance myself from broad brush strokes of “Americans” anymore and honestly is embarrassing. Also I feel deeply sad that I feel like I can never go home. That place just isn’t real anymore.

It really only feels appropriate to see it upside down these days.

I agree that our history has always been fucked up. But there are degrees of fucked up-ness and we're officially leaving the measurement scale.

It's fucking over.

In elementary school, I was all about patriotism. The flag was cool. we (country) were the bad-ass owners of our own fate and we're cool. We are the melting pot, by the people for the people.

Up through Desert Shield, I was still like yay, America.

W lost his luster, I got old enough to feel the embarrassment of broccoli and NUCULER. I wasn't rah rah anymore, but those that are, live and let live right?

Dixie flag wavers were racists, that was easy, but the 1776 flag, will maybe they're historians.

I was mostly over our the right's shit by Clinton. But then Clinton had some of his own disturbing shit.

When Trump hit the first time, I saw, 30-40% of the population throwing flags up and starting fascist fights. Complete and Immediate disillusion.

At his point, someone flying the US flag is a BIG red flag. The Dixie flag is stupid racists, The 1776 flag is libertarians who fall into camps between uninformed and uninformed racists pop it up there with the don't tread on me bullshit.

At this point, if you're not retired military from a better time, there's very little you can do to show me you can fly an American flag and not be a horrible person.

It also stands for showing sign of dementia these days.

Where I live it's hard to see someone flying an American flag and not immediately assume they're a bigot.

Magats did to the American flag what they think gay people did to the rainbow.

Team america, world police

We suck.

The greatest lie the Right ever told that the Left bought hook line and sinker was that they were the ones who represented America.

The thing is, while the US has it's horrible history and present, the people who fought for the ideals we're supposed to have are also just as much American as any conservative asshole. MLK Jr was American. Frederick Douglass was American. John Brown was American. Mister Rogers was American. Abolitionists. Suffragists. Union fighters. People fighting for fixing the problems, righting the wrongs, holding our country accountable for it's own ideals, are just as much a part of that flag.

The assholes laid claim to that flag and the people who are aware of the problems, who have legitimate concerns with the bullshit this country has done and continues to do, accidentally let them.

Even as a kid, I never understood how the USA flag could be a symbol of "freedom" while conscription exists. Today it has gone from a generally indifferent lie to borderline offensive

You tell me, man. Over here in Brazil, seeing a national flag outside the context of "it's world cup match day" generally signals whoever is flying it is a fascist twat.

As a German, I feel you.

Here's an alternative take to upset the boring consensus here.

Patriotic pride (not necessarily nationalism) is the inevitable product of social cohesion. A society which is cohesive is one where people look at strangers and see them as members of their tribe - essentially, as extended family. It's a society where citizens are therefore willing to pay high taxes to fund those strangers' welfare benefits, for example. No welfare state has ever arisen in a country without this essential quality. Almost by definition, social cohesion is closely correlated with patriotism. In the world's most redistributive countries - I'm talking about Scandinavia, of course - you will see more national flags than you might think given their "leftist" reputation. In Sweden, ordinary houses sometime have flagpoles in the garden, I've seen them. None of this is coincidental.

Patriotism can be a dangerous slippery slope, yes. But it's also what empowers strong states and collective action. Nobody wants a patriotism-free world more than the billionaires that everyone hates here. Be careful what you wish for.

It's a good step to consider patriotic ideology as prelude to fascism and tribalism. Welcome in the world of great oportunities, free from borders and labels put with force in your mind. Welcome there, human!