this post was submitted on 22 Jan 2025
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No Stupid Questions

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You'd think a hegemony with a 100-years tradition of upkeeping democracy against major non-democratic players, would have some mechanism that would prevent itself from throwing down it's key ideology.

Is it really that the president is all that decides about the future of democracy itself? Is 53 out of 100 senate seats really enough to make country fall into authoritarian regime? Is the army really not constitutionally obliged to step in and save the day?

I'd never think that, of all places, American democracy would be the most volatile.

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[–] [email protected] 29 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (10 children)

Not really.

In some countries, they have this idea of Defensive Democracy which would allow the government (via court ruling) to ban political parties that are deemed to be a threat to democracy.

In post WW2 Germany, the nazi party was banned, and later a "far-left" (aka: Marxist-Leninist) political party was banned during the cold war, because they meet Germany's definition of being anti-democratic.

Unfortunately, the US constitution does not have this concept of Defensive Democracy.

I mean we do have impeachment... but we all know how that is (doesn't work at all).

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 5 days ago

100 years? We very nearly reached 250.

[–] [email protected] 89 points 5 days ago (1 children)

The mechanism was the election.

I mean, sure, impeachment and whatnot, but it's not like people didn't know who this guy was. I can give other institutions a whole bunch of crap for not getting rid of the guy the first time, but when you've given him a Supreme Court supermajority, both chambers of Congress and the presidency AFTER he attempted a coup I'm gonna say that's on you, guys.

[–] [email protected] 29 points 5 days ago (4 children)

The mechanism was the election.

That's making the very bold assumption that there was no interference in said election. In fact, we know for a fact that there was, we just don't know the extent of the interference and whether it changed the outcome. The reason we don't know is because it wasn't investigated (or if it was, it wasn't publicized), so I'm going to take the stance that it's very possibly on the outgoing administration, actually, for not making a bigger stink about it.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 5 days ago (4 children)

See, you think that doesn't make it sound like desperate deflection after having handed the country to the nazis, but it does. I was here during the campaign, I saw how that went.

Nah, man, there is no amount of interference that justifies Trump having a fart's chance in hell of not losing every single state in a country unwilling to hand the keys to these guys 1932-style. Beds were made, sleeping in them is to happen.

It just sucks that the rest of us are under the covers getting dutch ovened as well.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 days ago (1 children)

this is why giving too much power to a single position within gov is not a great idea

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[–] [email protected] 139 points 5 days ago (7 children)

We’re ignoring the constitution already.

14th Amendment. Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

The man is an adjudicated insurrectionist. Congress just ignored their duty.

So yes, there “are” protections. Said protections are simply being ignored.

[–] [email protected] 32 points 5 days ago (4 children)

The problem with 14th amendment is that the people who wrote that never specified an enforment mechanism. So we don't know how to properly invoke it. Any attempts to invoke it would just result in the supreme court spontaneously "invent" a method of enforcement. They could say that the supreme court get to decide if someone is ineligible, then rule that trump is eligible because the supreme court doesn't have enough evidence to prove trump was involved in Jan 6, or just declare Jan 6 to be a "protest" not insurrection.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 days ago (2 children)

Not that it would be used, but the 25th Amendment is another avenue to removal of a President.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 days ago

Is 53 out of 100 senate seats really enough to make country fall into authoritarian regime?

Well you'd need 60; 53 is enough to do a lot but you can't amend the constitution or override filibusters.

Is the army really not constitutionally obliged to step in and save the day?

Usually when the army "saves the day" by removing a democratically elected president undemocratically we call that a military coup and it's considered, to put it lightly, a bad thing.

America isn't at all volatile as a democracy; as you surmised, it's on the robust side (sans nonsense like citizens united). However, there's not much that can be done when the anti-democracy guys won democratically not just the presidency, but also all government posts that would be able to stop them.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 5 days ago (1 children)

The USA has had a literal Nazi party since the 50's. If they let George Lincoln Rockwell run for president while calling himself a nazi why would they do anything?

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[–] [email protected] 40 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I believe this is where the second amendment comes into play. Luigi was on to something.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 5 days ago

Let's just say the amendments are sorted by importance.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 days ago

There are a few tools in the constitution.

[–] [email protected] 174 points 5 days ago (2 children)

Impeachment, but that starts with a 218 vote in the House and the House is on his side.

[–] [email protected] 71 points 5 days ago (9 children)

So you actually need majority to PREVENT the collapse of democracy, and if you don't have it, you're fucked? How the fuck did this country even manage not to succumb into dictatorship for such a long time?

[–] [email protected] 110 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (4 children)

Worse... The House makes the impeachment charge, that's a 50% majority vote.

THEN it goes to the Senate for conviction where you need a 2/3rds majority to remove them. 67/100.

That's the body which can't do anything because they're blocked by a 60 vote super majority to over-ride a filibuster.

So you get 218 in the House, goes to the Senate, needs 60 votes to end debate and proceed with charges, then 67 votes to convict and remove.

Trump's first impeachment got 48 and 47 votes.
His second was 57 votes.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_impeachment_trial_of_Donald_Trump

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_impeachment_of_Donald_Trump

If he had been convicted, he would have been inelligible to run in '24.

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[–] [email protected] 35 points 5 days ago (2 children)

I mean imagine if you could impeach the president without a majority. That would be the death of democracy. Just to put things in perspective: The GOP democratically won both houses of Congress and the presidency and because of DNC incompetence also has the Supreme Court. Them being able to do whatever the fuck they want is, in a way, democracy working as intended. It'd be weirder (and much more undemocratic) if there was a way to remove a sitting president without the Supreme Court or Congress.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

It’d be weirder (and much more undemocratic) if there was a way to remove a sitting president without the Supreme Court or Congress.

Turns out there is, in fact. It just doesn't involve governmental process at all. You're quite correct that it's undemocratic. (See: Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley and Kennedy)

[–] [email protected] 18 points 5 days ago (5 children)

This only proves that two-party system is just an authoritarianism with rotation. There's always a ruling majority and the winner takes all.

Things would be different with at least the third party. 2 out of 3 parties would agree that the party no.3 is a fucking malice and rule him out.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 5 days ago

Third party would most likely make things better but there's no guarantee it would help in the situation you've set up. If two of the parties are fine with an actual Nazi in the White House and between them they control over half the votes then we're still in the same situation.

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[–] [email protected] 59 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

If enough people in a democracy decide that they want a dictatorship instead, then there is no stopping it, because rules don't matter at this point. The trick is to not let it get this far. Tough shit for the US, though.

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[–] [email protected] 29 points 5 days ago (1 children)

But who will wield these instruments? It'd be more relevant if he made an effort to hide his nature before the election.

Right now the majority voted fascism with open eyes.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 days ago (5 children)

The army or the police should immediately jump in and arrest Elon after the second salute, when it became obvious the guy knew what he was doing. And yet he saluted 3 times and half the country is extremely enthusiastic about that.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 days ago (1 children)

You're calling for military generals to have the power to remove the government? Effectively a military dictatorship?

That seems unwise.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 days ago

Elon isn't a government official, there would be nothing unwise about arresting him for things most people would get arrested or at least questioned by the police for.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I thought it was twice? I mean, that doesn't detract from your point, and I don't even disagree. I just want to make sure the details are set straight.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 days ago

I saw a full clip on reddit. First time was just as bad, because he did it spontaneously, with no "throwing hearts". He just heiled out of nowhere.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 5 days ago (1 children)

America doesn't have a law forbidding the Nazi salute. It'd be against the first amendment.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

The right to free speech is faulty if there are no repercussions from breaking the law.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Again, the first amendment protects the right to free speech and association; as far as American law is concerned, Elon didn't break any laws.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Sure, but that's not what I'm saying. You said that forbidding a Nazi salute would be against the first amendment. I'm only saying that IF Nazi symbols were to be outlawed then the freedom of speech should not equal to freedom from breaking the law.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 days ago (1 children)

IF Nazi symbols were to be outlawed then the freedom of speech should not equal to freedom from breaking the law.

It does, though, because such a law would be struck down as unconstitutional. The First Amendment doesn't just protect lawful speech; it protects all speech and the American government just barely carved out an exception for inciting violence. These amendments are part of the constitution, which stands above and restricts the rest of American law. If you made a law saying that Nazi symbols were illegal, your law would (at least theoretically) be illegal and struck down in court and people would retain the freedom to use Nazi symbols. You might take issue with that, but if only legal speech was allowed then... the government could just make any speech it doesn't like illegal.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

You talk about amendments as if they couldn't be amended.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 days ago

They could be, but that would require another amendment, or in other words either a 2/3 majority in both houses or 2/3 of all state legislatures. You'd never get that many people to give up their right to free speech, because as soon as you put one kind of speech on the table all speech is on the table. Would you trust Trump with that kind of power?

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[–] [email protected] 47 points 5 days ago

The mechanism is impeachment. It's broken because of polarization.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 days ago

Really because the rest of us have been watching you be wildly volatile for years now.

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