this post was submitted on 26 Dec 2024
193 points (91.4% liked)

Games

38475 readers
1962 users here now

Welcome to the largest gaming community on Lemmy! Discussion for all kinds of games. Video games, tabletop games, card games etc.

Weekly Threads:

What Are You Playing?

The Weekly Discussion Topic

Rules:

  1. Submissions have to be related to games

  2. No bigotry or harassment, be civil

  3. No excessive self-promotion

  4. Stay on-topic; no memes, funny videos, giveaways, reposts, or low-effort posts

  5. Mark Spoilers and NSFW

  6. No linking to piracy

More information about the community rules can be found here and here.

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
(page 3) 33 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 19 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I just played Dragon Age Veilguard, and I'm now playing Dragon Age Origins, which was released 15 years ago. The difference in graphics and animation are startling. And it has a big effect on my enjoyment of the game. Origins is considered by many to be the best in the series, and I can see that they poured a ton into story options and such. But it doesn't feel nearly as good as playing Veilguard.

Amazing graphics might not make or break a game, but the minimum level of what's acceptable is always rising. Couple that with higher resolutions and other hardware advances, and art budgets are going to keep going up.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 26 points 4 months ago (2 children)

It's not that I don't like realistic graphics. But I'm not gonna pay 100 bucks per game + micro transactions and / or live service shenanigans to get it. Nowadays it's not even that hard to have good looking games, thanks to all the work that went into modern engines. Obviously cutting edge graphics still need talented artists who create all the textures and high poly models but at some point the graphical fidelity gained becomes minuscule, compared to the effort put into it (and the performance it eats, since this bleeds into the absurd GPU topic too).

There's also plenty of creative stylization options that can be explored that aren't your typical WoW cartoon look that everyone goes for nowadays. Hell, I still love pixel art games too and they're often considered to be on the bottom end of the graphical quality (which I'd heavily disagree with, but that's also another topic).

What gamers want are good games that don't feel like they get constantly milked or prioritize graphics over gameplay or story.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Eh. I want hyper realistic graphics, but I also want a solid story and good gameplay mechanics. If hyper realistic graphics took a backseat to story and mechanics I'd be just as annoyed as a focus on hyper realistic graphics over story and mechanics.

Edit: Generally speaking, of course. There's quite a few modern games with non-realistic graphics I enjoy, but I'm always waiting for that next hyper realistic game to push the boundaries.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 4 months ago (9 children)

And I don‘t think games have to look that good either… I‘m currently playing MGSV and that game‘s 8 years old, runs at 60 fps on the Deck, and looks amazing. It feels like hundreds of millions are being burned on deminishing returns nowadays…

load more comments (9 replies)
[–] [email protected] 11 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

You know the budget is spent almost entirely on the art when you actually pay attention to the credits and you see names for like 250 artists, but only 3-5 programmers.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 4 months ago (2 children)

"Hyperrealistic" weirdly means "more almost realistic".

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 9 points 4 months ago

The big problem for these AAA studios is that this is their unique selling point. Hyper-realistic graphics and sprawling game worlds. If they stop doing these, they're hardly different to the games from five years ago (which you can still buy and cheaply at that). And they're hardly different from indie titles. They would enter quite the competitive market.

I do agree that we're at somewhat of a breaking point. The production costs grow to absurd levels. The graphical advances are marginal. And not many gamers can afford the newest hardware to play these titles. But I don't think, there's an easy exit strategy for these AAA studios...

[–] [email protected] 14 points 4 months ago (2 children)
[–] [email protected] 6 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Oh man... I still can't read it because of the atrocious background. I was hoping this link would have just been normal text.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago

Firefox reader mode fixes that background.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

You can select the text that's over that background to make reading easier. Most of the article is below it, so you should be fine after a couple taps of Page Down.

Or use Firefox reader view, which cleans it right up. :)

[–] [email protected] -2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I linked the gift article. This link shouldn't be necessary, right?

[–] [email protected] 21 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

The archive link:

  • Doesn't have a tracker.
  • Works with scripts disabled (good privacy & security practice).
  • Will still be useful when nytimes.com eventually disables your gift ID or takes the article down.
[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago

Fair enough.

[–] [email protected] 86 points 4 months ago (6 children)
[–] [email protected] 14 points 4 months ago

Well, everyone has their priorities. The problem is that even the people, who do value realistic graphics the most, are not captured by new AAA games.

load more comments (5 replies)
[–] [email protected] 47 points 4 months ago (4 children)

How hard is it for them to realize this? Graphics are a nice to have, they're great, but they do not hold up an entire game. Star wars outlaws looked great, but the story was boring. If they took just a fraction of the money they spent on realism to give to writers and then let the writers do their job freely without getting in their way they could make some truly great games.

[–] [email protected] 47 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Look, I'm gonna be real with you, the pool of writers who are exceptionally good at specifically writing for games is really damn small.

Everyone is trained on novels and movies, and so many games try to hamfist in a three-act arc because they haven't figured out that this is an entirely different medium and needs its own set of rules for how art plays out.

Traditional filmmaking ideas includes stuff like the direction a character is moving on the screen impacting what the scene "means." Stuff like that is basically impossible to cultivate in, say, a first or third-person game where you can't be sure what direction characters will be seen moving. Thus, games need their own narrative rules.

I think the first person to really crack those rules was Yoko Taro, that guy knows how to write for a game specifically.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Yeah, but you can't make a TV ad about good writing.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 20 points 4 months ago (2 children)

It's hard for them to realize because good graphics used to effectively sell lots of copies of games. If they spent their graphics budget on writers, they'd have spent way too much on writing.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago

I think we landed in a situation where some people don't understand the different between graphical style and graphical quality. You can have high quality graphics that are still very simplistic. The important part is that they serve their purpose for the title you're making. Obviously some games benefit from more realistic graphics, like TLoU Part 2 depicted in the thumbnail & briefly mentioned. The graphics help convey a lot of what the game tries to tell you. You can see the brutality of the world they are forced to live in through the realistic depiction of gore. But you can also see the raw emotion, the trauma on the character's faces, which tells you how the reality of this world truly looks like. But there's plenty of games with VERY simplistic graphic styles that are still high quality. CrossCode was one of the surprise hits for me a couple years ago and became one of my favorite RPGs, probably only topped by the old SNES title Terranigma. They both have simple yet beautiful graphics that serve them just as well as the realistic graphics of TLoU. Especially the suits / publishers will make this mistake since they are very detached from the actual gaming community and just look at numbers instead, getting trapped in various fallacies and then wonder why things don't go as well as they calculated.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Yep, it's a byproduct of the "bit wars" in the gaming culture of the '80s and '90s where each successive console generation had much more of a visual grqphical upgrade without sacrificing too much in other technical aspects like framerate/performance. Nowadays if you want that kind of upgrade you're better off making a big investment in a beefy gaming rig because consoles have a realistic price point to consider, and even then we're getting to a point of diminishing returns when it comes to the real noticeable graphical differences. Even back in the '80s/'90s the most powerful consoles of the time (such as the Neo Geo) were prohibitively expensive for most people. Either way, the most lauded games of the past few years have been the ones that put the biggest focus on aspects like engaging gameplay and/or immersive story and setting. One of the strongest candidates for this year's Game of the Year could probably run on a potato and was basically poker with some interesting twists: essentially the opposite of a big studio AAA game. Baldur's Gate 3 showed studios that gamers are looking for an actual complete game for their $60, and indie hits such as the aforementioned Balatro are showing then that you can make games look and play great without all the super realistic graphics or immense budget if you have that solid gameplay, story/setting and art style. Call of Duty Black Ops 48393 with the only real "innovation" being more realistic sun glare on your rifle is just asking for failure.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 4 months ago

Baldur's Gate 3 showed studios that gamers are looking for an actual complete game for their $60

This language always misses me. Every game I buy is complete. Adding an expansion to it later doesn't make it less complete, and it's not like BG3 wasn't without major bugs.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 119 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (5 children)

There are a number of theories why gamers have turned their backs on realism. One hypothesis is that players got tired of seeing the same artistic style in major releases.

Whoosh.

We learned all the way back in the Team Fortress 2 and Psychonauts days that hyper-realistic graphics will always age poorly, whereas stylized art always ages well. (Psychonauts aged so well that its 16-year-later sequel kept and refined the style, which went from limitations of hardware to straight up muppets)

There's a reason Overwatch followed the stylized art path that TF2 had already tread, because the art style will age well as technology progresses.

Anyway, I thought this phenomena was well known. Working within the limitations of the technology you have available can be pushed towards brilliant design. It's like when Twitter first appeared, I had comedy-writing friends who used the limitation of 140 characters as a tool for writing tighter comedy, forcing them to work within a 140 character limitation for a joke.

Working within your limitations can actually make your art better, which just complements the fact that stylized art lasts longer before it looks ugly.

Others speculate that cinematic graphics require so much time and money to develop that gameplay suffers, leaving customers with a hollow experience.

Also, as others have pointed out, it's capitalism and the desire for endless shareholder value increase year after year.

Cyberpunk 2077 is a perfect example. A technical achievement that is stunningly beautiful where they had to cut tons of planned content (like wall-running) because they simply couldn't get it working before investors were demanding that the game be put out. As people saw with the Phantom Liberty, given enough time, Cyberpunk 2077 could have been a masterpiece on release, but the investors simply didn't give CD Project Red enough time before they cut the purse strings and said "we want our money back... now." It's a choice to release too early.

...but on the other hand it's also a choice to release too late after languishing in development hell a la Duke Nukem Forever.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 4 months ago

Just wanna throw Windwaker into the examples of highly stylized art style games that aged great.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 4 months ago

Unfortunately, Cyberpunk is exactly the kind of product that is going to keep driving the realistic approach. It's four years later now and the game's visuals are still state-of-the-art in many areas. Even after earning as much backlash on release as any game in recent memory, it was a massively profitable project in the end.

This is why Sony, Microsoft, and the big third parties like Ubisoft keep taking shots in this realm.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 4 months ago (2 children)

I honestly feel like this with Genshin Impact. It looks absolutely breathtaking and in 20 years it will still be beautiful. It runs on a damn potato. I personally like the lighting in a lot of scenes way better than the lighting in some titles that have path tracing.

I have always liked art styles in games better than realism.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 4 months ago (4 children)

In what world does Genshin runs well on a potato? Unless you have a different definition of potato than me. My Galaxy S10e can barely play the game, and it's not even slow enough to be called a potato

load more comments (4 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 36 points 4 months ago

This article's reasoning is faith based. The cornerstone assumption is that industry profits and layoffs obey the preferences of the market.

To those who follow the industry, this is demonstrably false. What follows is the lack of awareness on full display:

and even though Spider-Man 2 sold more than 11 million copies, several members of Insomniac lost their jobs when Sony announced 900 layoffs in February.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

It is hard for me to take seriously a hand-wringing industry that makes more money than most entertainment industries. Capitalism is the primary cause of articles like this. Investors simply demand moar each year, otherwise it is somehow a sign of stagnation or poor performance.

AAA studios could be different, but they choose to play the same game as every other sector. Small studios and independents suffer much more because of the downstream effects of the greedy AAAs establishing market norms.

We need unionization, folks. Broad unionization across sectors to fight against ownership/investor greed. It won't solve everything but it will certainly stem the worst of it.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Overall good article with some inaccuracies but the answer to the articles question is to me an easy no. The whole industry won't recover because its an industry. It follows the rules of capitalism and its a constant race to the worse and while good games by good people happen on the side, they happen in spite of the system. Everything else is working as expected and will continue until you pay per minute to stream games you rent with intermittent forced ads and paid level unlocks.

[–] [email protected] 41 points 4 months ago (1 children)

It's nice to see gaming covered in NYT at all. The article generally rings hollow to me. I'm not an industry expert, but:

  • It's easy to be profitable when you're just making a sandbox and your players make the games, but at that point are you a game developer? (Roblox)
  • High end graphics cards have become so expensive that people can't afford gaming with good graphics
  • AAA developers aren't optimizing games as well as they used to, so only high end hardware would even run them
  • AAA is more focused on loot boxes, microtransactions, season passes, and cinematics all wrapped up in great visuals. That's at the expense of innovative gameplay and interesting stories. Making the graphics worse won't get execs to greenlight better games, just uglier ones. And they'll still be $70.
  • Even when games are huge successes and profitable, studios are getting bought and shut down (EA, Microsoft, Sony?), so it's hard to say the corps are hurting.
[–] [email protected] 9 points 4 months ago

High end graphics cards have become so expensive that people can’t afford gaming with good graphics

Not only that, but mid range cards just haven't really moved that much in terms of performance. The ultra high end used to be a terrible value only for people who want the best and didn't care about money. Now it almost makes sense from a performance per dollar standpoint to go ultra high end. At launch the 4090 was almost twice the performance of the 4080, but only cost about 1.5x. And somehow the value gets worse the lower end you go.

Meanwhile mid-high end cards like the 4060 and 7600 (which used to be some of the best values) are barely outperforming their predecessors.

load more comments
view more: ‹ prev next ›