this post was submitted on 07 Dec 2023
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Free and Open Source Software

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[email protected] - Oh my gosh I just figured it out.

Okay, all you open source evangelist people: your knee-jerk reaction to come at people who are talking about a problem with whatever commercial software they use and suggest Your Favorite Alternatives™ is exactly like saying "why don't you just buy a house?" to someone complaining about their landlord.

[email protected] - Actually, to borrow from @DoubleA, it's worse than that.

It's like talking to someone who is in a crappy apartment as though they have the agency and skills to stake out a plot of land and build their own home.

You have to be at peace with the fact that some people just want to exist and not worry about so many things. And they still have a right to complain about their situation.

Link to thread: https://mas.to/@TechConnectify/111539959265152243

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Except it is actually the inverse. FOSS is usually free to access and fork. Whereas commercial walled gardens cost you thousands.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

The cost of something isn't always in the form of money. In many cases with Foss there are comprises in either simplicity, stability, documentation, or compatabiliry.

For instance I can boot my machine into a live garuda instance and it runs great, but as soon as I install it, it runs like trash. I spend something like 3 hours fiddling trying to get it going then wipe and try to install smaugos and it wont even boot. I install debian and it works okay but sluggish. Popos works fine. 2 days of fiddling around and I find something that works. Windows may cost more than just money, but it worked out of the box and I didn't have to fiddle or try a bunch of different distros. We can go down that rabbit hole, but let's look at other things.

Foss often has volunteer support that can be hit or miss and often requires more advanced knowledge of the os or software. There's also often toxicity like people shaming for not knowing everything about the application or os. Commercial support is often dedicated and may even remote into your computer. I'm not saying Foss can't do that, but I've never heard of it for free.

FOSS doesn't work nearly as easily or reliably as commercial software a lot of the time. Nextcloud is a good example. There are a million ways to install it, but now you need to learn docker, or how to setup a web server and even then maybe the docker image is buggy or straight up doesn't work. The different Linux distros is another example.

Then there's the learning curve. Even if FOSS has 1:1 parity in functionality, it often comes at the cost of learning a LOT about a new application, or the functionality is different or harder to use compared to a commercial alternative.

Don't get me wrong I live foss. I self host, I'm slowly getting rid of windows and degoogling. But there is cost to do all of this, even if its not monetary. Plus not everyone has the time, patience, or interest in it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Because the reason companies are brazen enough to pull the crap that they do is because most people have viewpoints along the lines of this post. Reddit for example has almost certainly performed a cost-benefit analysis and wouldn't have locked down their API like they did if they suspected an actual risk of enough people switching to Lemmy and other alternatives where the lost revenue would have been significant. And they were right, the vast majority of Reddit users tangentially looked at Lemmy and similar alternatives but are still on Reddit. The people actually here on Lemmy saying they'll never use Reddit again are a tiny minority of Reddit's total userbase.

I'm genuinely surprised that a creator who has a ton of op-eds in his videos and constantly pushes for electrification and heat pumps citing their lower environmental impact, which is very correct and noble of him mind you, doesn't apply the same logic to software.

Also, obviously it's not good to be a dick when promoting FLOSS as you're more likely to push people away from it, if that was his point then I'd tend to agree (admittedly I've been guilty of that before). Maybe that's what he meant, but he doesn't mention that in the post and seems to imply that even a friendly or matter of fact suggestion that a FLOSS alternative is available is unacceptable. Like are you complaining just to complain or are you complaining because you want suggestions on how to solve the problem? I don't know what his experience with FLOSS discourse is, but I've personally complained about a proprietary software, had someone point out that an alternative exists, and immediately tried it out and often end up switching. Literally the other day, I was complaining about the Unix cp command, someone suggested I use rsync instead because "it's better", and what do you know they were right.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Exactly! I actually talked back and forth with him a bit and eventually said that "complaining about a missing FOSS feature is like complaining to the volunteer ladeler at a soup kitchen about the lack of a gluten-free option. It's just not the path to getting the change you want."

In the end he seemed to get what I was saying, but was still irritated. I've been really learning lately how hard it is for some people not to see themselves as customers in FOSS land.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

I’ve been really learning lately how hard it is for some people not to see themselves as customers in FOSS land.

It perplexes me, because when people get free stuff that isn't FOSS, they have no place to complain. Their only option is to pay for the software, but most don't. As soon as they see a place they can complain, they go twitter on the place.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

You could be tied to a specific piece of shit you don't like because it's what your job requires you to use.

I had to work with Salesforce and when I'd complain about it, Id be given all sorts of alternatives. These are nice but... The dude in charge of what the rest of us had to use liked Salesforce, so we all suffered.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

Ah yes, put your problem out in the internet, then get befuddled when people suggest solutions. Classic.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago (2 children)

@morrowind funny to find this here when I wrote my reply just a while ago:

"It's like talking to someone who is in a crappy apartment as though they have the agency and skills to stake out a plot of land and build their own home."

Maybe if you're suggesting them to install Linux From Scratch, then yes, it is.

If you're suggesting them them to install any of the many very simple (and very usable OOTB) distros like Fedora, then it's not.

In that case it's like the house is free, already built and furnitured, and right next to their own; but they have to move their personal belongings from one house to the other and learn a different room layout.

Sure, they still have the right to complain about how their landlord treats them like crap. But they sound pretty damn stupid if they do so while having an available free house right next door, and refusing to move because they don't want to learn a new room layout.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

How many times have you setup Fedora or any other Linux distribution and have every single thing working from the get go?

I'm talking drivers, audio, networking, libraries, DNF, repositories, plugins, runtime dependencies, ...

  • That house isn't furnished.

And don't forget, plenty of popular software isn't even compatible. Meaning you got to use alternative software that doesn't always do what you want it to do.

  • So buy a new couch, cause that one isn't getting in.
[–] [email protected] 0 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

How many times have you setup Fedora or any other Linux distribution and have every single thing working from the get go?

I’m talking drivers, audio, networking, libraries, DNF, repositories, plugins, runtime dependencies, …

Is proprietary software any easier than that though? Don't you have to put in much more time removing all the spyware and bloat they put in and then spend all your time perpetually fighting against forced updates and applications being installed without your permission?

Whereas with Fedora my experience is more or less install it and forget it.

The "it's easier" argument for proprietary software I think died at least 15 years ago.

Choice of applications is a different argument.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Is proprietary software any easier than that though?

Yes, take nvidia drivers for example, on windows I just download the installer and run it and done.

Last time I tried to move to Linux desktop (attempted Fedora and then EndeavourOS) about a year ago, none of that worked properly. Installing drivers was not in any way straightforward, needing CLI commands and google, where every guide I found seemed to have a different method used to install them, I kept getting outdated ones, and I had no idea what I was doing.

At the end of all that I still didn't have HW acceleration in my browsers, my desktop had screen tearing, gsync didn't work properly in windowed apps, the GPU wouldn't downclock fully at idle like it's supposed to, I couldn't figure out how to get shadowplay working, and so on.

And yes I do know this is technically mostly nvidia's fault for not having as good quality of drivers on linux. But as an end user all I care about is that my stuff works properly without googling things, needing the CLI, and spending a lot of time on it.

Don’t you have to put in much more time removing all the spyware and bloat they put in and then spend all your time perpetually fighting against forced updates and applications being installed without your permission?

Definitely not, I don't really spend much time at all. I haven't experienced forced updates, my apps just update through winget manually when I want to. There are a few extra apps I don't need on windows but those take a minute to remove, I can't say I've ever experienced an app being installed without my permission other than edge I guess, but that replaces IE for embedded browser stuff so it's kind of needed.

Most of my 'admin' time is spent on the opensource apps I use, generally on my self hosted stuff. But also just on basic things like backup software, Veeam is my primary backup which is basically a 1 minute set up with a few clicks through the GUI, but I've been trying out Restic too which requires writing my own scripts to handle backups, more scripts to handle pruning and such, manually installing them as services so they run properly, and writing my own notification system on top of that just to get an email if something goes wrong.

Opensource is great, but it's usually extremely time intensive to get the same results, with lots of documentation, google, and just wasted time trying to figure out the basics.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

It's somewhere in between, you're not building your own software, but oss software does usually tend to need more work. It's like telling someone with a shitty landlord to move to a new house which they get to own, but it has no paint, or lighting, or flooring and they have to move their furniture and learn a different layout

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

And If it doesn't require more work, it requires different work. The beast you know is easier and more comfortable to understand than the beast you don't know, even if it would be more beneficial to learn to deal with the newcomer.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

"This program is really expensive and I keep having to buy a new computer every two years because it gets so slow."

You're being fucked with, when there are alternatives out there.

But that is none of my business.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

Alternatives aren't always a solution.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

It really isn't though.

A day or two or even a week to get the hang of something isn't a 40-year mortgage

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago (2 children)

When I say to my sister "I will literally buy the house for you, help you move in, and give you my phone number you can call any time you need any help with it" and she comes back with "I'd rather sit here and complain about my landlord" I think I have a right to get angry

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Yeah, and that is their opinion, which is as valid as yours.

They are the ones who will have to use the software day in and out, they should be the ones to decide which software they use.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

okay but you still don't get to act like i'm saying "just buy a house!"

[–] [email protected] 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

you have to admit this is one hell of an edge case. the vast majority don't have your sister's 'problem'

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I think the majority of us also don’t want to play tech support.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

You haven’t seen the FOSS community then

Also you will have to play tech support no matter what if you set them up

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

Or you will need help and ask questions and people will assume you are "lazy asking" and be toxic just because you are a beginner and don't know stuff. Recently I've lost count on how many projects I joined some kind of communication space like Discord and left as soon as I saw how awful people can be when they want to gatekeep

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Translation:"I refuse to try the thing that people tell me might make my life better. I prefer to rant and complain to random strangers on a public forum rather than accepting that a solution to my problem may exist"

It's funny, this is not at all his stance when it comes to hardware and appliances. It doesn't even sound like something he'd say.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I follow him on Mastodon, and I think many regular users misunderstand his specific problems. They're unique due to his huge number of followers, and I think that if we want Mastodon to grow, it wouldn't be a bad idea to include more tools for folks with large followings.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago (3 children)

The whole point is that a bunch of people don't have the technical skills to figure out FOSS. Sure, sometimes the ux is just as good as the main competitor, but in my experience, usually it isnt and has a decent learning curve

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

This.

Last month, I installed Mint, which is my first ever Linux install. I chose it because people said it would be the most hassle-free.

The bugs currently plaguing me include:

  • Steam's UI scaling is off, to the extent that I practically need a magnifying glass to read it.
  • Bluetooth has now decided that it no longer wants to automatically connect to my speaker.
  • Discord won't share audio during screen sharing anymore.

But the big one, the one that made me stop and think, was the keyboard. Right out of the box, my function keys (brightness, airplane mode, etc) would not work. This turned out to be because the laptop was not recognizing its keyboard as a libinput device, but treating it as a HID sensor hub instead. To fix it, I had to:

  • Find similar problems on the forums and recognize which were applicable to my case.
  • Learn what the terminal was and how to copy code into it.
  • Learn that the terminal can be opened from different folders, which alters the meaning of the commands.
  • Learn the file system, including making how to make hidden files visible.
  • Figure out that a bunch of steps in the forum were just creating a text file, and that any text editor would do.
  • Figure out there were typos and missing steps in the forum solutions.
  • Learn what a kernel is, figure out mine was out of date, and update it.
  • Do it all over again a month later when for some reason my function keys stopped working again.

For me, this was not a big deal. It did take me two evenings to solve, but that's mostly because I'm lazy. But for someone with low technical literacy (such as my mom, who barely grasps the concept of ad blockers in Google Chrome), every one of these bullet points would be a monumental accomplishment.

The FOSS crowd can be a bit insular, and they seem to regularly forget that about 95% of the people out there have such low technical literacy that they struggle to do anything more involved than turn on a lightbulb.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 11 months ago (2 children)

It's an interesting take from a tech YouTuber to say they are not good with tech

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

He's noticed an issue that people who are into tech always push complicated things onto non techies. I don't see how that is contradictory or weird...

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

He is the other kind of thech tho. He isn't the programmer kind of tech.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago (3 children)

I'd be more sympathetic to that mindset if it was anyone other than TC saying this. He's a smart dude and I have every confidence he could figure out how to use a new piece of software.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

.. could.

Or he (and anyone else) could go and do one of 20000 other potentially way more interesting things with their life.

Imagine that?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I think he's talking in general. But who knows.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

He is, very obviously.

Some of his recent rants have been about technology that is actively unfriendly to people who are not good with technology. That doesn't mean he cannot figure it out, but it means his parents can't.

Inevitably people show up to suggest a giant convoluted solution based on the power of open source. Menu poorly worded on the ecobee? They should be using home assistant anyway!

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Are you trying to gather a lynch mob here? I think posts like these are quite bad taste. Most wont have a good understanding of the situation.

Does this really fit this community?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

Is there a community where a take like this would be considered and welcome? Asking because I would like to follow that community…

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

I agree. As inaccurate as Technology Connection's statement is, this post here is kind of...distasteful.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 11 months ago (2 children)

In this thread, everyone getting caught up on the first toot and not the second where he clarifies his point.

If you step past the initial investment of buying a house, the analogy makes perfect sense. When you rent an apartment, your landlord (the provider) takes care of all the maintenance; you just live there and you get what you get. When you own a home, you take care of all of the maintenance, but you get to set the place up however you like. This isn't that different from a lot of FOSS out there.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago

your landlord (the provider) takes care of all the maintenance

this is a dirty lie :P

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

In this thread, everyone getting caught up on the first toot and not the second where he clarifies his point.

To be fair, the second part is not included in the image.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Lemmy doesn't allow for multiple images as far as I'm aware, so I did the next best thing: put it in the description

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

Not saying I blame you; you're bound by the limitations/restrictions of the platform.

I'm just saying it's not as obvious and so others may not have noticed it. :)

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