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At a certain point it just becomes an additional poor person tax.
Tax it enough to offset the additional healthcare costs. Enact strict laws on where and when you may smoke, but not so strict it becomes impossible for a smoker to smoke. Then be done.
I don't think there's a person on earth who doesn't know it's bad for you. This punitive tax increase after increase is just making people miserable for no reason other than so legislators have something to point at to justify their salaries.
I don't smoke anymore π¬
Good.
Semi related: I learned recently that there's no tobacco tax on raw tobacco in the EU. You can buy whole leaves online for like 10β¬/kg and then turn them into rolling tobacco or snus or snuff or whatever. No additives unless you put them in yourself and you can blend different strains to your personal taste (not that I'm advocating for it but you know, if you're a tobacco user anyway). It's not that difficult to do either, plenty of tutorials on youtube.
Increase the taxes to kingdom come, both for normal and e-smoking stuff. Make advertising, vending machines, and smoking in public places illegal.
Why e-smoking? Why not just tobacco products?
I think disposable vapes should be banned outright.
Agreed. Too much waste and not enough enforced regulation.
The most common justification for taxes on tabacoo products is that they're bad for the health of the general public, and the same goes for e-smoking.
This is only semi-related but I dislike e-smoking more than cigs, mainly cuz people that vape seem to think nobody is bothered by it and sometimes just straight up do it in public buildings, smokers atleast are selfaware and at the very least step away from people when they need a puff from the good'ol cancer stick
In my experience smokers are more careless than vapers. Also cigarette smoke triggers my asthma while someone vaping propyleneglycol does not.
You can watch as handfuls of people vape their shit as soon as a plane lands now. Itβs insane
EDIT: people inside the plane
on the last plane i was in a couple in front of me vaped the entire flight while trying to hide it. and that's only the people i could see...
Because they not just bad for peoples health, they are also a nemesis of the environment.
According to Cancer Research UK, there is no evidence that "passive vaping" has harmful effects. Vaping itself may not be harmless but far less harmful than tobacco products, given that it is just propyleneglycol, flavoring and nicotine. Uncontrolled imports from China may however contain more dangerous chemicals, so I'd advocate being lenient on self-mixing/custom vapes while being far stricter on imports.
Also while I advise against vaping indoors due to possible staining of walls from nicotine and pungent smells that may irritate people, it should still be allowed outside and on personal balconies and terraces.
https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/causes-of-cancer/smoking-and-cancer/is-vaping-harmful
I don't mind people around me vaping, but the disposable ecigs are a scourge to the environment and need to be banned.
Yeah lets check that in 10 years.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4565991/
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acs.est.7b00710
https://scholar.google.de/scholar?start=20&q=passive+vaping+effects&hl=de&as_sdt=0%2C5#d=gs_qabs&t=1750859598694&u=%23p%3DpzVN5DufXgsJ <- This one recommends replacing PG with distilled water and VG to reduce throat irritation in active vapers.
https://link.springer.com/rwe/10.1007/978-981-16-7680-2_7
These are all the relevant papers I found on passive vaping in the first four pages of research paper search. I got access to like ten sites for research and there used to be a grey area site for accessing and downloading research papers (sort of like torrenting) but that site was taken down two or three years ago.
Most studies say that the health effects of passive vaping are insignificant and significant health problems are mostly found with unregulated throwaway THC vapes. Active vaping is another story and vaping PG at overvoltage with sub-ohm coils can produce formaldehyde and some other toxins. However overvolting a rig will also burn your mouth which is why the instance of producing said toxins is uncommon. More likely is that for active vapers the inhaling resistance of PG vapor may have some pulmonary irritations compared to water or glycerine vapor.
Vaping has existed for nearly 20 years now and it has been studied ad nauseam due to the same fears as with smoking. Most research shows that it is far less harmful than smoking if the compounds used remain at propyleneglycol, vegetable glycerine, flavoring and eventually nicotine (as nicotine itself does not cause cancer but is an addictive stimulant). Denying all the evidence is just delusional.
Thank you for your comments. The media and tobaco lobby did a great job to demonize vaping! All to get vaping into the hands of big tobaco which are doing a great job with disposable vapes to demonize it further. Small to medium companies which did a great job with refillable vapes really struggle or are already dead because of that.
We see what it has led to in Germany. Propyleneglycol and vegetable glycerine got the tobacco tax making it prohibitively expensive for anyone who isn't a manufacturer or wholesaler. Vapeshops now have to sell PG and VG at like 200β¬ per liter when before tax they cost like 10 to 20β¬ per liter. If anything, they should have taxed the nicotine shots instead.
Yes. And I am fully against tobaco smoking. I am a ex-smoker and I hate it. But instead of using vaping to completely phase out tobaco smoking and than to phase out vaping also it gets taxed and demonized to keep smokers smoking and the youth is hooked on to disposable vapes from the tobaco companies. Great job everyone. Capitalism at its best.
I am also an ex-smoker and hate smoking. I'd rather have my significant other who is a smoker though to rather vape because it doesn't trigger my asthma and allergies. However cessation is sadly not an option for her right now because she already has depression and stuff and last time she tried stopping, she began to utter thoughts about actions I absolutely don't want her to do.
Also vaping can eventually wean smokers off tobacco and make later cessation easier, because most people are really weary about the stuff I used to stop smoking (kratom and kanna) despite them being legal and far less dangerous than tobacco. Also smoking cessation is pretty damn hard and a lot of people here may be unaware how hard it is. Giving smokers options to an easier cessation or less dangerous nicotine consumption options should be the goal here.
The thing New Zealand did where everyone born after 2007 is banned from tobacco and nicotine products would be a decent action. I'd still be for nicotine free vaping as long as it isn't throwaway products and strictly controlled. Maybe even allow THC vapes and psychedelics as long as they are controlled through state owned dispensaries like with Sweden and alcohol.
Also I am against alcohol and am abstinent from it.
Sorry to hear that about your significant other. Nicotine is a hell of a drug to stop and alcohol is also very bad. I also try to avoid it. I had high hopes for vaping and a less toxic alternative for smokers...
Best wishes for you and your significant other!
Taxes are fine but there are more effective ways.
put BIG warning labels on packages and every single cigarette
already done, even with images of lung cancer, addicted people don't care and kids think it's "cool" and "taboo"
put quit smoking programs onto every package
same as above.
- prohibit smoking in ALL public spaces
- prohibit smoking while driving
- prohibit smoking while near vulnerable groups (kids, pregnant women, ill) even at home
how are you going to catch them? who is gonna enforce the law, the chain smoker cop? you directly, going against an highly aggressive person who's in the middle of nicotine withdrawal?
Remove vending machines which provide this drug 24/7
- move dispensary to drug stores
i mean sure it cooould teeechnically work
a bit of an unpopular opinion, but as someone who almost chokes on second hand smoke, i'd personally say just fuck it and outlaw cigarettes and vapes entirely, they're durgs after all, no? (this might open up another discussion about legalizing drugs, but whatever. Also shrooms and LSD don't stink up the whole place and actually have fun effects unlike cigs)
already done, even with images of lung cancer, addicted people donβt care and kids think itβs βcoolβ and βtabooβ
They're effective.
The effectiveness of tobacco warning labels has been studied extensively over the past 50 years, and research shows that they are generally effective in changing smoking attitudes and behaviors.[3][4][5] A 2009 science review determined that there is "clear evidence that tobacco package health warnings increase consumers' knowledge about the health consequences of tobacco use". The warning messages "contribute to changing consumers' attitudes towards tobacco use as well as changing consumers' behavior".[6]
same as above.
Haven't seen them here in Austria/Germany. Also if you do that put websites not phone numbers there.
how are you going to catch them? who is gonna enforce the law, the chain smoker cop? you directly, going against an highly aggressive person whoβs in the middle of nicotine withdrawal?
I mean I can still drive faster then allowed if nobody is watching. Should we stop enforcing speed limits because of that?
iβd personally say just fuck it and outlaw cigarettes and vapes entirely, theyβre durgs after all, no?
It's way to ingrained into society to be outlawed completely.
I'm for controlled legalization of ALL drugs but keep them highly regulated. Drugs that directly harm others, like smoking should only be allowed in very specific locations like at home.
I mean I can still drive faster then allowed if nobody is watching. Should we stop enforcing speed limits because of that?
I think i explained myself poorly, the regulations you proposed are very good and should be enforced, but especially with old people, smoking everywhere will be so much ingrained in their brains that they won't care and tell everyone who points it out "what, it's just a cigarette"
If they get fined often they'll stop.
And pot, too, right?
Right?
Nah, legalize weed, shrooms and coca leaves.
That's my point, the hypocrisy is deafening.
Ramp those taxes up!
It does work though. Here in Australia you still see people smoke here and there, but you notice the difference when travelling around the world.
Went to Paris and Rome in December and it was really annoying having to deal with smokers and vapers seemingly everywhere.
Australia has a massive cigarette black market now though, with big organised crime syndicates running it. They need to roll back the taxes to regain the market.
It's not nearly as massive as the "legit" tobacco industry. If it was that big an issue, people would be smoking everywhere. And as I mentioned it's obvious how much more people are smoking in Europe compared to here.
So the point stands, that in absolute terms, smoking is way down. Your average person doesn't want to buy cigarettes from their local drug dealer.
Just ban it for everyone whoβs born after 2007
That's what New Zealand did, would've been a good choice before a massive crime network was established in Australia. The people selling illegal cigarettes will just sell them to kids anyway.
The tobacco lobby says boosting taxes on its products will just encourage black market sales and cut national revenue β undermining any attempt to funnel revenue into the bloc's next long-term budget.
So...they're straight up admitting that they're just going to start selling their product under the table, if this passes?
They're probably trying to say that cigarettes will simply be bought in non-EU states and brought in by others to sell. Which will definitely happen and is already happening. If anything an increase will only marginally effect the current underground market.
So they're just trying to fear monger a bit. They know current smokers will continue to buy and it. Doesn't matter if they buy it from a 3rd party seller or not. They made their money. What these companies fear is that high prices will discourage future smokers from starting
Sure sounds like it to anyone able to figure out that 1+1=2, yes.
Oh no!
Anyways....
I hope it's sensible with regards to tobacco derived products (ie nicotine).
I used vaping to quit smoking. And I'm now on the nicotine pouches and have quit vaping.
I know I'm just swapping 1 addiction for another, but each has significantly reduced the risk to me and those around me.
But if the pouches do get more expensive, I'm sure there's some nicorette or some other official/medical nicotine thing I can swap to. I assume they won't get a tax increase (cause if they do, then the tax is stupid)
That's very impressive you are quitting. It takes lots of effort to do that. You can keep it up!
I don't mean this as a judgement. Ideally, wouldn't you now have preferred if smoking was prohibitively hard to start in the first place?
Oh yeh. I wish smoking was just completely not a thing and never was a thing.
When I started it was very socially acceptable and cheap to smoke.
Then it got less socially acceptable (indoor smoking ban), and a big bump in price. I tried quiting a few times, but I always ended up smoking again.
Somehow, when working hard and under time constraints "going for a smoke break" was an accepted excuse to spend 5 minutes outside. Bonkers.
Anyway, a proper vaping setup, making my own vape juice and all that had me forget about cigarettes within a few weeks, and I vaped for 5 years. Maybe 8?
Still had an excuse to go for a break, but I felt so much healthier vaping than I ever did smoking. And I could still sneak a vape indoors if there wasn't time for me to go outside.
Been on the pouches for 1.5 years now.
So yeh, increase the taxes on tobacco. A small bump for vaping nicotine (imo, safer than smoking but not risk free). And ideally no tax increase for nicotine products.
I could see a minor bump in taxes for snus/snuff/chewing tobacco. It's still a risk to the consumer (because it's tobacco), but it doesn't pose a risk to 3rd parties (because it's not burnt or aerosolised).
Where are you located? There are pills called Defumoxan which work so well I use them as an off switch. You can get them in Central Europe. I used to smoke for over 20 years and sometimes still give in, even after years of not having smoked. So then I smoke again for a month or 2 and then I order those pills and quit again within a week without any withdrawal symptoms.
My wife thinks I abuse it a bit, because I actually started planning weeks or months where I smoke, like you plan a vacation. She's probably right, but I always enjoyed it and this way I don't smoke 95% of the time.
Im liking the EU more and more every day
Dammit... Wellp! Guess I'm learning how to grow my own tobacco!
We had a tobacco plant in university we could take home after experiments were finished. Of course we dried the leaves and tried it. Tasted like shit, so good luck. Glad that I stopped smoking two years ago!
You have to cure tobacco, just like cannabis. You have to slow the end of the drying process to allow cells to continue to break down starches and chlorophyll.
Good shit, make them sweat.