Clerics don't need to choose.
this post was submitted on 11 Jul 2024
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Feign death every time. Most OP spell in the game.
This says a lot about spells in 5e.
Yes, there are many great choices, but one choice is usually greater than others.
Come to Pathfinder, where all the spells are kind of okay I guess.
please don't kill me
I think my next stop on the TTRPG tour will be Blades In The Dark. I borrowed the flashback mechanic for a 5e heist and it was pretty great.
Pathfinder 2 is even worse in that regard. You have a few kind of okay ones and then a bunch you’ll essentially never use. The price of Pf2s strife for “balance”.
It's probably my biggest pain point with the system. I have a buddy who only likes to play magicians. She's miserable playing 2e because the cool evocative spells she gravitates towards just aren't the narrow list of reliable, evergreen, and efficient spells that thrive in 2e's ecosystem.
Hey now, you only need to pick twelve interdependent feats in order to make Counterspell useful!
Is this some sort of DnD joke I'm too Pathfinder to understand?
It's some kind of leveled spell joke I'm too GURPS to understand. Am I to believe that magic only works at arbitrary discrete levels? Surely any competent mage can vary the intensity of their spells with the mana they invest, no?
Energy can be measured in discrete quanta, there is no reason magic can't.
To be fair though the fact that energy comes in packets does fuck me up
I have no trouble accepting that mana exists in quanta. What troubles me is the idea that mana clusters into meta-quanta like spell slots. Also that a spell like, say, Fireball, is totally unviable except with a specific meta-quantum of mana, at which point it does 8d6 damage.
Shouldn't it be a simple matter to cast a weaker Fireball with less mana, or a more powerful one with more? I get that you need magic to summon fire, and a certain amount to summon 8d6-worth. But all or nothing? Why shouldn't a 1st level slot summon 1d6 with a 5ft radius, a 2nd level slot 4d6 with a 10ft radius? One would imagine a gradient, even quantized, between Fire Bolt and Fireball.
A couple things from the way I understand magic in the universe, the example of fireball: some spells will come with a minimum quanta because in order to make that spell that spell you need to add mana (energy) to a minimum level to give it certain attribute(s). This is why you can always cast at higher level, using way more energy, but not less. There are other fire spells at a lower level, such as [Insert 1st level spell with fire attribute] but it lacks the explosive attribute. The explosive attribute requires way more energy than just creating flames just to acquire so a closer example would be more like, why can't I make it ice ball? Change the elemental attribute (much easier to change and lower costing. Probably just a restriction of game mechanics than world restriction, but potentially an issue with attribute matching)
So I regards to the difference between fireball and [Insert 1st level spell with fire attribute] level , you'd start off casting [Insert 1st level spell with fire attribute] and you can increase it's power until you may as well just spend that energy on the explosive attribute. Though if you didn't want that explosive attribute you still could cast [Insert 1st level spell with fire attribute] with the same energy as fireball. I'd also assume the value coefficient for spells changes as you scale and the more efficient use of high energy costs would be the high level spells. I.E. you get more value in damage from 5th lvl fireball than 5th level [Insert 1st level spell with fire attribute].
Another way to imagine it would be like summoning. I cast "summon frog". I get a frog. Why can I not get a smaller frog? Because this is the size of frogs. But if I add even more energy to it I can add a growth attribute to the spell, so when I cast summon Giant frog, I get a big boi frog. If I try to reduce it, I get a French delicacy rather than a summoned frog. Alternatively I could do, summon tadpole and get something different, and weaker, but still a frog-ish attribute
Edited for clarity, removed cantrip.
why can't I make it ice ball?
As an aside, the last 5e character I played before switching was an Order of Scribes wizard, which can do exactly that.
So I regards to the difference between fireball and firebolt, you'd start off casting firebolt and you can increase it's power until you may as well just spend that energy on the explosive attribute. Though if you didn't want that explosive attribute you still could cast firebolt with the same energy as fireball.
You can't though, Firebolt is a cantrip, you can't upcast cantrips, they just get more powerful as you level up. They don't even use spell slots, it's just a different empowering mechanic entirely. Guess what though, what you've described is how it works in GURPS.
Yes yes, firebolt is a cantrip so use any first level spell for this example instead. I was just trying to provide something off memory for people to use
Can trips are kinda their own thing
or a more powerful one with more?
You can do that. Using higher level spell slots deals more dice of damage.
Come to DCC, we have variable spells effects and weird lore
I appreciate the invitation, but I've already found my forever home. It's got variable spell effects, variable magic systems, and tools to build spells, and magic systems, from scratch.
Did you learn algebra before 7th grade?
Maybe, what's it to ya?
No, this works in Pathfinder too. There is a very obvious meta and people follow it.
Fair enough! What's the Pathfinder 3rd tier spell everybody chooses? :D
Ahem. FEAR 3
Real
Haste, Slow, and Dispel Magic are mandatory. If you are playing in a heroic fantasy campaign, Fireball and Fly are also essentially mandatory. Otherwise, Tongues is the popular pick.
Fear,Counterspell, Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Haste, and Revivify + Spirit Guardians (for the divine soul sorcerer) are just too good.
Spirit Shroud is also great for Martials.
Ashardalaon’s stride is really really fun in the right place as well. Unmitigated fire damage just for using your move speed? Not always worth the concentration slot, but by far one of the coolest 3rd level spells.
I’m a big fan of Plant Growth too actually. But that’s more Bard and Druid.
Uh…counterspell?
Best spell in the game.
Edit: also for clerics i’d pick spirit guardians over everything.
Hypnotic Pattern. Damage is for chumps. Mass save or suck for me
Playing a druid currently and I couldn't count the number of vile glares I've gotten from the DM as I utter "I cast Dispell Magic"...
I don't pick Counterspell because I don't want to piss off my DM.
They need to think more creatively. You're now focused on countering the enemy caster, and the party might be more distracted helping you to clear out the threat.
This is the perfect opportunity to take advantage of, and put some nice pressure down.
Nah, the group where I play the caster who could take Counterspell has a fairly green DM and I just don't want to stress him out more by thwarting his plans.
With a veteran DM? Boy I am fucking them every which way front, back and sideways with creatively misused utility spells.
A player having access to counterspell is need-to-know DM information just like a player having access to flight is. It can and should be planned around.
Also, if the player and DM are into it, escalate the arms race, start having enemies prepare counterspells. Lots of interesting casters have it on their lists but DMs are afraid to use it to its full potential. Players would do it to enemies all day long but when the tables are turned, nobody ever forgets what it's like to have the enemy lich counterspell their heal.
My current wizard character didn't take counterspell until the dm sent a wizard at us with it first. He had no one to blame but himself.
I have a house rule where a counter spelled counter spell is nullified but causes a roll on the wild magic table for both casters.
That is a great idea!
Mutually assured destruction. I like it.
Hypnotic Pattern, Haste, and Revivify are all great choices too
But
Fireball, Fireball, and (Fireball for Light clerics) Spirit Guardians is understandable
(Fireball for Light clerics)
"What kind of holy man packs Fireballs?!?"
"The awesome kind, that you're lucky to afford. Now stand clear."
Tiny hut.
What about tiny fireball?
Think A wall of force and a fireball can make a fireball hut?
Leomund would be proud
Fireball fireball fireball and oh fireball
Just Fireball.