Men's Liberation

As one commenter stated perfectly well, the problem with "man or bear" posts is that in subtext it introduces the hostility and division towards men.

It's not just women discussing their fears, it's women signaling "men are more dangerous than bears".

And this rightfully insults and angers many men, as it is a direct attack based on a wide immutable identity that omits any nuance.

Such posts do not promote any understanding of the situation, do not explore any root causes, and, from what I've gathered, comment threads are full of people telling men to shut up, either because "it's not about them" or because "women's safety are more important than men's feelings" (as if those posts promote women safety).

This is not alright.

Seeing all these comments that actually get it gives me hope for us dudes. I interact with so many dudebro types at work, and only have so much energy. And then coming onto Lemmy and seeing the same shit - it gets demoralizing real quick.

We gotta get dudes out of their own heads somehow - make them actually think about how they're affecting those around them, and get them to expand the number of ways they positively affect their local sphere and minimize the negative ways.

What do I think?

It's fiction.

Don't read too much into it.

I'm a cis het man, and I'd rather be stuck in a forest with a bear than a strange man.

How is the appropriate answer not to just kill yourself because no matter what you do, you're going to be scaring someone just for existing?

I feel like a product of a bygone era that should just...not exist anymore. Existing as a 'good man' doesn't do any good.

As someone who has suffered heavy physical and verbal abuse [including threats of false rape and even an instance where she said she'd hurt herself and tell everyone including the police I was the one who did it to her] from a female for 3 years and has since developed severe mental and trauma issues from it, if I said:

"If I was given a choice to be stranded in the woods with either a bear or a woman, I would choose the bear, because the bear wouldnt accuse me of raping it if I ignored it."

How would you feel? See, I've said this before, and I just got downvoted to oblivion because guys can't be abused! It's discrimination against women! It's sexist. How dare you not support women! It invalidates their feelings and experience with abuse! Statistically, its more likely to happen to females, so we're more understanding with their situations! HOWEVER, these same people are 100% all in on dogpiling any male with the audacity to say, "This is offensive. Not all men are like that!", and they're all too happy and eager to invalidate male experiences simply because it's "Not as common."

I know more than one of these men that women would rather not take a chance with... The JR/AT/JP/TradWife/dudebro types. When I asked my girlfriend about the choices, she chose 'bear' immediately, and specifically called out someone we knew, saying, "Would YOU want me to encounter in the forest if I didn't know him?" And she was right -- I'd prefer she choose the bear...

And that's tragically fucking sad that someone I know is so far down the 'dudebro' rabbit hole that I wouldn't leave my GF alone with him in a compromised position.

If you've spent any time alone in the woods, any gender would fear running into a sketchy person. I've had bear encounters. Only humans have made me wish I had a firearm to protect myself alone in the woods. I'm a man that can handle himself, and I still treat strange men as a threat.

Bluntly, I wouldn't want to have some lady I've never met, trapped in the forest with me either. Not because I'm a bad person, far from it.

I feel like I'd be rather handy if I was lost in a forest, but she wouldn't know that.

Fact is, any lady weighing in on the discussion doesn't have any reasonable guarantee or even a reasonable probability of getting someone half as helpful as me, and a nontrivial chance of getting a date rapist, so I get it. The worst that a bear would do is kill and eat them, and if they're lucky, it'll happen in that order. There are fates worse than death.

I don't take any offense at someone answering "bear". At all. It's an age old question, of the devil that you know, versus the devil that you don't. Sure, there's a non-zero chance you'll end up in the woods with bear grylls (or someone with a similar skillset), or Mr. Rogers (or similarly kind person), but the far more likely scenario is not that.

It's not a statement against me personally as a male, it's a statement about the average man. If that offends you, there's a good chance that you're part of the problem.

I'm not here to judge. So I'll let you decide for yourself.

The fact is, unknown men is basically a gamble most aren't willing to make. What can we do about it? Probably somewhere between Jack and squat. Unless we can "fix" the socially inept and creepy men, as well as the rapists, would-be (opportunistic) rapists, date rapists, and just all around shitty men, pretty much all at once, this stereotype isn't going anywhere. Just be the change you want to see in the world, and try to encourage your brothers to be better.

I don’t understand why this is a problem. I would choose an animal over a human, man or woman.

This whole scenario makes total sense to me. Try to put yourself in the role of the woman:

Man vs bear, random encounter alone in the woods. Both can easily overpower and harm you.

With the bear, you know it's one or the other, it either is going to be scared off by you yelling at it, or it's not and it will very quickly kill you.

The man, if he intends no harm, cool. But if he does intend harm, it can be impossible to tell. He can lie to you, appear friendly and helpful, all the while plotting to harm you horrifically. The bear can have no such malice.

The bear will not target you because of your race, sex, political views, gender identity, sexuality, or nationality.

The bear won't pretend to be your friend to lure you into a sense of false security. The bear won't become enraged at something you say and all of a sudden turn on you.

The bear has no fragile sense of ego that it will attempt to assert if it feels you "wounded" it in some trivial way.

A bear cannot be brainwashed by toxic propaganda or cultural norms about gender roles. A bear will never have any sense of sexual entitlement.

A bear won't drug you and assault you, a bear won't call its friends to join in when you are vulnerable. A bear won't hold blackmail against you after getting you drunk and manipulating you.

If all women had to do 99.99% of the time to scare away dangerous men was stand up tall, puff our their chests, and yell loudly, I doubt we would be having this conversation.

There is a book I will mention that will get me downvoted to oblivion, but it is very relevant to this discussion. It is called "White Fragility" and it discusses the following phenomenon: When vulnerable groups express criticism of societal problems, individuals will take that criticism personally and redirect the conversation towards their feelings. This has the effect, whether intended or otherwise, of shutting out the voice of the vulnerable group and forestalling any meaningful change. The book identifies this phenomenon in discussions of race, but I hope you can identify the parallels.