That's actually pretty neat. Thanks.

The big things to remember with this discourse is that one, the regret rates for going through transition are exceedingly low. Like so low it's virtually unheard of for almost any other medical intervention. This heavily implies that not only is the current standard of care very good at weeding out people for whom transition is not the correct treatment, but that it might even be too good and there's a significant cohort of people for whom transition would be the best treatment but they get filtered out because they don't present as being trans enough. Furthermore when you dig deeper into those regret and detransition rates you find that most of the time the reason for detransition was external. Meaning things like can't afford the medication, discrimination, getting kicked out of housing, etc.

The second big thing was already mentioned and it's that there isn't a neutral option. Imagine telling a 13 year old girl "how do you know you're not a boy unless you go on testosterone for a few years?" Just because we're talking about the puberty that they'd naturally go through without intervention doesn't mean that it's good.

But realistically the most any kid younger than ~16 is gonna get when they show up to the gender clinic saying they're trans is therapy, social transition so things like trying out a new name, pronouns, and/or clothes, and at most puberty blockers. Puberty blockers by the way have been proven safe for trans kids since the 90s. Then if they still want to transition they might start HRT after months if not years of this therapy.

I'm looking for discourse more than a webpage.

Given the prevalence of forced mutilation of intersex babies as well as medically unnecessary circumcisions, I humbly disagree that these procedures are "weighted on total outcomes".

As I said, it's not a perfect system. However, a lot of the times the flawed treatments of their times were influenced by how physicians perceived cultural norms.

As cultural mores are adjusted and education within the medical community improves, treatment options are usually re-aligned to fit the science. For example circumcisions are becoming a thing of the past and intersex operations nare usually conducted after secondary sex organs develop.

Every doctor who has performed that procedure was fully aware that it was medically unnecessary and did not have reason to believe the baby would not come to regret not being given a choice years down the road. I'd argue these procedures are institutionalized medical malpractice.

Eh.... Doctors are a slave to social mores as much as anyone is. They are unfortunately just as susceptible to belief as lawyers or politicians. There were beliefs that spouted about hygiene etc, but in reality those were just to validate belief systems held by the vast majority of the population. In the end they believed that the harm was not very significant to the pts overall health.

but I think it's critical to acknowledge that the field of medicine still has very strong biases in these matters and is not nearly as Cartesian as it is sometimes made out to be.

I think it's fairly obvious that the medical system has failed several minority groups, most recently trans people. I am proclaiming how medical providers should behave and how we were trained to treat all patients. Unfortunately, as you have stated, beliefs systems unjustly often interjects itself in medical care. Whether that be in prescribing birth control or administrating gender affirming care.

and you better have gametes to prove you can pee there