this post was submitted on 17 May 2025
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The overarching goal of communism is for laborers to own the means of production instead of an owning/capitalist class. Employee owned businesses are the realization of communism within a capitalist society.

It seems to me that most communist organizations in capitalist societies focus on reform through government policies. I have not heard of organizations focusing on making this change by leveraging the capitalist framework. Working to create many employee owned businesses would be a tangible way to achieve this on a small but growing scale. If successful employee owned businesses are formed and accumulate capital they should be able to perpetuate employee ownership through direct acquisition or providing venture capital with employee ownership requirements.

So my main questions are:

  1. Are organizations focusing on this and I just don't know about it?
  2. If not, what obstacles are there that would hinder this approach to increasing the share labor collective ownership?
(page 4) 35 comments
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[–] [email protected] 71 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (12 children)

This isn't really accurate, from a Marxist perspective. Marx advocated for public ownership, ie equal ownership across all of society, not just worker ownership in small cells. This isn't Communism, but a form of cooperative-based socialism. There are groups that advocate for worker cooperatives, but these groups are not Communist.

Essentially, the reason why cooperatives are not Communist is because cooperatives retain class distinctions. This isn't a growing of Communism. Cooperatives are nice compared to traditional businesses, but they still don't abolish class distinctions. They don't get us to a fully publicly owned and planned economy run for all in the interests of all, but instead create competition among cooperatives with interests that run counter to other cooperatives.

Instead of creating a Communist society run for the collective good, you have a society run still for private interests, and this society still would inevitably erase its own competition and result in monopoly, just like Capitalism does, hence why even in a cooperative socialist society, communist revolution would still be on the table.

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 week ago

In my country, the communist party (very watered down version of communism but still) is behind/aligned with most unions and they defend that companies should either be owned by the employees (co-ops) or employees should have a stake and saying on companies governance.

We have another left-wing party that even defends that failing companies should be returned to the employees, with government backed funding (loaned) if necessary to recapitalize the business and relaunch the company under employee governance.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 week ago (3 children)

Hey OP, there is a reply from a user from lemmygrad.ml which you cannot see as sh.itjust.works has defederated from 'grad. Check out the post on lemmy.ml to see it.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 week ago

The overarching goal of communism is for laborers to own the means of production instead of an owning/capitalist class.

No, the overarching goal of communism is to create a stateless, classless and moneyless society.

Employee owned businesses are the realization of communism within a capitalist society.

No. At best, you could say that coops are a proto-socialist element within a capitalist society. Firstly, I am using the term "socialist" as separate from "communist" here, and secondly, a proto-socialist element is a very different thing from an enclave of socialism within a capitalist world.

The simple problem is that capital is capital. A capital is a self-reproducing social relation that competes with other capitals in a sort of evolution by natural/sexual/artificial selection on the markets. The problem is capital itself, and the solution is to destroy capital. Creating a new type of capital that is less destructive, or one that operates under less destructive modes is fine for countries where development has not reached to the point that they can directly gun towards communism. However, for advanced, and especially late-stage capitalist economies, the task is not to pursue further development of market forces, because market forces have already matured. The task is to eliminate market forces (although this may take time).

Coops may give a more equal distribution of wealth amongst the workers, but the aim of the communists is to abolish wealth, because the very meaning of wealth is that a private individual gets to command the labor of others. That is the fundamental social relation that money embodies and facilitates. The only way to remove the power to exploit other people's labor is to remove the ability to command labor. But if you cannot command labor, then money becomes worthless and your ownership of the coop doesn't mean anything.

Are organizations focusing on this and I just don’t know about it?

Yes. A quick google search shows examples such as the international labor organisation

If not, what obstacles are there that would hinder this approach to increasing the share labor collective ownership?

Part of the fundamental problem is just that the bourgeois class is not stupid. They want exploitable workers and profits. If you deprive them of that, prepare to face their wrath as they abandon all pretenses of human rights or fairness or the sanctity of markets.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago
[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)
  1. There are efforts to build emoloyee owned businesses around the world
  2. The system is pitted towards accumulation through antisocial behavior which is absent in democratic companies, hence they're disadvantaged
  3. Communists and anarchists are revolutuonists, not reformists. The reason is that reform makes the inherently cruel system easier to bear and abolishment less likely.
  4. Some want to go the reformist route to try if it is actually achievable
  5. Most importantly and very evident in the US: 100 yrs of reform can be rolled back in one day. We're seeing that reform is pointless.
[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Most importantly and very evident in the US: 100 yrs of reform can be rolled back in one day. We're seeing that reform is pointless.

It also means swinging the other way takes a day. (Unlikely, but now far more likely than before.)

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Absolutely not. Progressive politics arent easy to understand and need vastly more effort to implement than regressive politics. You're arguing completely against history.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children)

No they aren't. A number of proposals have been kicked around for decades. There has not been the will to implement.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 week ago

A number of proposals have been kicked around for decades. There hasniot been the will to implement.

That's the point. A dictatorship of the bourgeoise will not implement progressive policies unless you fight hard for them. They will however, in the absence of resistance, implement increasingly reactionary policies in a heartbeat.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago (3 children)

In that case I suggest a history class.

There have been bloody protests over a long time, people died, there even was a revolution in france.

All for some small changes that are absolutely logical.

Now germany for example is reverting the 8 hr workday without any protests needed.

The ignorance of people is insane.

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[–] [email protected] 51 points 1 week ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (3 children)

I think communists and socialists and anarchists and broadly leftists do argue for cooperatives and workplace democratisation.

The reason they maybe don't do it enough is because those businesses in our present environment will get beaten by exploitation mostly.

Co-operatives by nature will sacrifice profit for employee conditions because they have more stakeholders (and shareholders) to be accountable to. Lower wages through exploitation will tend to reduce costs and allow the capitalist businesses to drop prices, and outcompete opponents and secure more investment capital due to higher market penetration, which will allow them to invest in their business, incl. Marketing and product development, and outcompete the more fair sustainable business, until they corner the market and can jack up.the prices and bleed consumers dry and push for laws/lack thereof to exploit employees and cut costs further.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 week ago (2 children)

I don't agree with this. Shareholders extracting value from a company is arguably more of an 'inefficency' than treating employees fairly. Well treated employees provide a benefit to the company while shareholders purely remove resources.

I have no data to back up my claim, just logic, so I could very well be wrong.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

You got a point there, and there may be a lot of data to prove that point.

I am part of a housing cooperative ("Wohnungsgenossenschaft" in German), and these cooperatives are noticeably cheaper because they are owned by the members/renters and don't have to generate any profit, just enough excess money to build new homes. The principle is very convincing if you live in it and save loads of money every month. The cooperatives employees aren't overworking themselves, too.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

The idea for a lot of communist ideologists is we don't need these hyper competitive corporations. The end goal isn't "higher GDP" (or more salary), it's "better quality of life". I think most unions are like that.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 week ago

Join the IWW.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 week ago (4 children)

It's really hard to generalize about leftist groups. The communists that feel this way have formed co-ops, or are cooperating with anarchists to do something like syndicalism (focused on unionizing existing businesses).

But the methods to start and grow businesses in a capitalist country inherently rely on acting like a capitalist. Getting loans requires a business plan that makes profit, acquiring facilities and other businesses requires capital. Local co-ops exist because they can attract members and customers that value their co-opness, but it's very hard to scale that up to compete at a regional level. It's not impossible, but it's hard to view it as an engine for vast change.

Communists that focus on voting are delusional (in my opinion) but like all reformists they view the existing government as the mechanism to make widespread change.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 week ago (4 children)

You’re proposing socialism.

Communism wants central authority.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Thats so funny because you have it completely backwards. Communism, the end goal, is a moneyless, classless, stateless society in which hierarchy has ceased to exist. State socialism or "the dictatorship of the proletariat" is a interim step on the path to communism that aims to eliminate class and the social structures that perpetuate it.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Hierarchy would exist even in Communism, at least in Marxist conceptions. Class would not exist, but it won't be until an extremely developed, extremely late-stage Communism where all distinctions in the division of labor can genuinely be moved beyond, well after class has been abolished.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 week ago (1 children)

communism is literally the final goal of socialism.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago (3 children)
[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 week ago (2 children)

That's two different definitions of Communism. Anarchist Communism can be likened to Commune-ism, ie a decentralized network of communes, while Marxists want Communism as a fully publicly owned and planned global economy, one that requires centralization.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

yes, anarchists want communism straight away without going through socialism first.

mostly because they identify the state itself as the main problem, not capitalism or imperialism per se. socialists view this the other way around.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 week ago

I mean kind of yes but most people would not call them synonymous

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Imagine believing you can defeat capitalism without central authority.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 week ago (13 children)

Imagine not recognizing that central authority is the problem.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 week ago

Ok so lets say you get rid of the central authority in one fell swoop. What happens when the millions of people who really really benefitted from that authority or atleast believe themselves to benefit decide they want it back. Can a decentralized stateless society truly win political or military battles against them? I can tell you from history that everyone who has tried this eventually resorted to their own centralized authority in order to survive, failed, or both. Communist do not see centralized authority as good, we see it as a means to survive.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 week ago

Central authority is a tool. In different hands it does different things, but if you disarm yourself you'll lose.

If you do not choose your leaders they will choose themselves. We tried the whole leaderless, decentralized anti-authority thing throughout the 2010s. At best you might be able to collapse the central authority of the currently existing government regime, but what comes after that is always much much worse: civil war, invasion, or an even more repressive government regime. But, more likely, the movement will just collapse because it lacks the structure to actually sustain itself.

We need to be centralized and we need to be ready to assert our authority when the old one is destroyed, or we will lose.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago (3 children)

Therefore, socialism should be the ultimate aim.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 week ago

It can't be, really, as Socialism either progresses to Communism or backslides to Capitalism.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children)

Socio democracy and I'm onboard.

Edit: all socialist & communist dictatorship losers can go live in North Korea IMO. Read a history book ffs.

Edit2: my fault, I didn't see I was on .ml Tank on tankies.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Socialism IS democratic production, thus the political systems can reflect as such. Maybe more regional control, as I'm led to understand the Swiss cantons function like. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I truly believe a mixed economy is the answer.

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