this post was submitted on 15 May 2025
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[–] [email protected] 17 points 3 weeks ago

It was dumber than you think. There was an emperor who reacted to 'rome falling' with thinking his pet pigeon, whom he called Rome, had died. When he learned the city had fallen he was actually relieved and didn't give a fuck.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 3 weeks ago

I’m sure it did they just didn’t have social media and cell phones to document the fall in 4k.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

I'm pretty sure it had equally stupid moments, like the still today infamous moment where Nero played whilst Rome burned.

Whilst when it come to History decades blur into a handful of stories and us non-Historians just learn it like that with explanations about why it happened, living in the actual thing moment by moment without the benefit of hindsight and an overview of the whole thing to put all pieces together is a very different experience.

I wouldn't at all be surprised if in the fullness of time all of what's going on now will be pieced together with what came before and what comes next, with some nice explanation about, say, how the the neoliberal political experiment of the late XX century with it's heavy emphasis on weakening Governmental oversight of the Economy re-enacted in the early XXI century many of the same problems with the Economic structure and the Political capture by the Merchant class of the early XX century causing a similar resurgence in Fascism and the fall of Democracy in several nations. (Certainly History seems to rhyming again).

Future generations will mainly see it as bunch of high level descriptions of the main events knowing fully what the outcome was, without the fear and anxiety of experiencing it as it develops without knowing what comes next.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

like the still today infamous moment where Nero played whilst Rome burned.

That didn't really happen though.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 weeks ago

Also, even if it did happen, it was centuries from the fall of the Roman Empire.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

It's both sad and funny how even in our own downfall, we're still comparing ourselves to fucking Rome. An empire that 1) Was actually nothing like ours 2) No nation state should ever be emulating because it was awful 3) Lasted a thousand+ years and 4) Literally murdered the god and prophet of our primary religion.

We are not the heirs of that ancient Mediterranean hierarchy, nothing existing today is or will be. The god damn Rome mind virus. Let go of it.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 weeks ago

really nice roads though.... ;) /s

[–] [email protected] 11 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

The late empire was a pretty silly place. That's what happens when the elite has to pretend a failing system works.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago

Oh, like Camelot?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 weeks ago

Most empires were like that. As a system gets bigger, it's possible set of outputs (and ways to solve issues) actually decreases.

Angkor civilization: climate crisis? Build more temples to please the gods!

Assyrian empire: unsafe borders? Vanguish our enemies!

USA: wealth inequality? Blame the immigrants!

Russia: fading relevance? Expand our borders!

[–] [email protected] 29 points 3 weeks ago (5 children)

In fact Nero's reign was this stupid. All the John's revelation mythology that informs Christian eschatology is (biblical academic consensus submits) about Rome under Nero. Nero was notoriously as vein as Trump and is probably the same sociological phenomenon.

King Heron is once again eating all the frogs.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 weeks ago

King Heron is once again eating all the frogs.

Or turning them gay.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago

Roman Empire lived on from 400 (in the West) to 1400 years (in the East) after Nero. So if Trump is your Nero, you have quite a good while and some good times to expect

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Nero has been pretty much redeemed in modern scholarship. The majority of the stories about him stems from slander written by avowed enemies of the Julio-Claudians (Tacitus and Suetonius in particular), later amplified by Christian writers who carried a special grudge against him. The archaeological evidence suggests he was a capable ruler, who carried out lots of large scale projects that were pretty beneficial overall, and he certainly didn't set Rome on fire and fiddled while he watched it burn.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

I got a follow up question to the biblical academic consensus - where do you get that from? I mean literally, since I always wanted to kind of read the bible with these kinds of interpretations, but I absolutely don't know where to go for a source like this. Any tips?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 weeks ago

Check out this YouTube channel from Dan McClellan. He's a biblical scholar with a Bachelor's (BA) in Near East Studies from Brigham Young University with a minor in Classical Greek, a Master's (MSt) in Jewish Studies from Oxford, a Master's (MA) in Biblical Studies from Trinity Western University, and a Doctorate (PhD) in Theology and Religion from the University of Exeter.

He's gotten kind of popular over the past couple of years debunking religious nuts on TikTok, but he's got a lot of very informative videos on the Bible and biblical history, what certain books or passages were actually talking about, and so on. He presents things in a clear and understandable way, without fluff or editorializing. I can't recommend him enough.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 weeks ago

I think a good starter might be a YouTube channel called Esoterica.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 3 weeks ago

At least Nero could play an instrument.

[–] [email protected] 74 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

The fall of the Roman Republic certainly was. One of the biggest forces driving it was malignant social inequality. The wealthy patrician class, buoyed by hoards of slave labor seized from the conquered provinces, was dispossessing the Roman citizens who had fought and died to conquer those lands.

Reformers had a variety of ideas on how to solve this. One of the most popular ones was to simply buy land up and give it to Roman citizens that found themselves destitute. An expensive program, but you know what the real stupid thing was?

The money was there. The Roman state had overflowing coffers, vast amounts of gold and other riches taken from those conquered provinces. The reformers didn't even want to raise taxes on the rich to pay for their social redistribution programs. They just wanted to take some of this vast pile of gold the state had won and use some of it to benefit the people who actually did the fighting and dying to win that gold.

But, the elites refused to share. They wanted it all for themselves. And eventually they lost all their power to the Caesars as a consequence.

[–] [email protected] 46 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Humanity is really fucking good at making the exact same mistake over and over and never even coming close to learning anything from it.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

We learn more and more each time, actually, but all the very rich people support these movements which include a huge infusion of anti-intellectualism, since the insanely wealthy really, really want to keep their (ill-gotten) gains.

This is how all the big super-popular podcasts hosts are hyper-masculine misogynist far-right dude-bros like Matt Walsh, Ben Shapiro and Joe Rogan. Like PragerU, they've all been supported with infusions of money until they became functional franchises of their own.

NSDAP in Germany also drew large donations from the ownership class eager to stay the ownership class in the face of the rise of communism. Essentially they (including some Jewish donors failing to predict their own arrest and evacuation) sought any opposition party, who was the fascist autocrat party.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 weeks ago

Only correction I would make is Ben Shapiro is their Token Jew and def not a hyper-masc dude-bro. He's the dweeb part of that movement.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I blame the tyranny of our amygdala.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Whilst in 2 millennia we massively evolved the tools we use, we barely evolved socially and did not at all evolve Psychologically or Physiologically.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 weeks ago

We can change our environment but we can’t change the hearts of our neighbors.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 weeks ago

So, pretty much like any other era, really.

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