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this post was submitted on 23 Oct 2023
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This makes absolutely no sense in my country.
Any child born in this country, if born in an hospital, leaves there already a citizen, with all connections to the state the child is in right to have, by force of law. This means from the moment the child is born, the child gains legal status and protection under the law, including from the parents and family.
Children that by some reason could not be registered at the hospital facilities are required to be registered in under 10 days from the date of birth, under penalty of heavy fines for the parents.
Less than a year back, there was a new cover about a gates community where a child was born and died for unknow causes in less than a year. Somehow, this transpired to the authorities and trigered a massive investigation. More children were found, unregistered, which means unvaccinated, never seen by a pediatrician, etc.
The so called "leader" of that community accused the state of overbearing, arguing the children were his, by right of father, and thus he was entitled to raise the children as he saw fit.
The subject quickly faded off the main news lines, as it was deemed a sensible subject, prone to cause suffering to more children, but that ass got the full weight of the law on him, from child endangerment, to destruction of remains (the deceased baby was alledgly cremated on the compound grounds).
The other children were removed from the compound, along with any members of the community that such chose to.
The religious freedom and parents rights arguments were carefully laid down on the ground, run over with a steam roller, folded, pressed again, soaked in kerosene and lit on fire.
We are a mostly liberal country but children have special protection under the law. We are born citizens and as thus the state has the responsibilty to defend us.
Are there flaws? Yes. Some, grotesque. But for the majority of cases, the system works.
There's a growing movement of "free birthing" where people are choosing to give birth unassisted and without medical intervention.
I suspect it's people trying to take agency in countries without universal health care where giving birth medically supported is financially untenable for a large population. Influencers do it and glorify it and make it look like an attractive option for people who also have anxiety about health.
It's really sad actually. The child seems less important than "the perfect birth story"
I have nothing against more people trying to give birth without medical assistance, exactly because giving birth nowadays is more and more considered a surgical act than a physiological process.
We have a NHS and the complaints from women and, fortunately, from men as well, about violence during labour as been pilling to create awareness and force changes.
From pushing for C-sections, to strapping women to the "chair", which is a proven bad position to give birth, systematic episiotomy, forced shaving of the pubic area, premature, too late or unnecessary epidural, no opening for different birthing positions...
I'm going to stop here. It's a sensible subject for me.
More and more people are looking for alternatives to give birth outside the reach of uncaring or indifferent doctors, which has been making space to doulas and midwives reappearing, often nurses that have undergone specfic training for such purpose.
These people are not trying to make the birth of their children unsafe but instead less violent and less of a medical act and more of a natural process.
The babies are nonetheless visited by a pediatrician, the foot test is done, and the children are registered because not doing so is endangering the child and depriving them for social backing, both child and parents.
Sorry for the long wind. This is a sensible subject to me.
I fully respect that medical treatment of women has historically been lacking, and at times horrific. Number of c-sections is actually a metric used to measure appropriateness of medical interventions for a reason, since if it's not necessary it's extremely invasive and a brutal recovery.
I feel for those who have had bad experiences. Midwives are absolutely amazing.
I am more concerned with those that refuse prenatal care and medical care for their children, when they are accessible, for their own comfort.
Your last few words intrigued me.
For their comfort? How? Usually, it will be extreme outliers going down such route, often connected with distrust from government or religious motivation.
I guess it's not really their comfort, you're right about there being extrinsic factors at play.
By their comfort I meant avoidance of discomfort, in relation to medical procedures, to the extreme of potentially jeopardizing the health of their child. Things (other than avoiding prenatal care, which can result in more dangerous situations during delivery) like refusing vitamin k for their newborn.
This makes absolutely no sense in my country.
This makes absolutely no sense in any country. The whole "Sovereign Citizens" movement (and its offshoots and influences) is a steaming hot pile of garbage that's being cooked by an underlying tire fire. It's what happens when sociopaths interact with each other in ways that feed and fan the flames of their disorder.
based asl
"Sovereign citizen", my ass. They just don't want to participate in society, at least not in the part where the concept of society involves a "give". This is not only about giving taxes, but also topics like "give your kid a chance for a normal life".
This is just child abuse. Denying your child the basics that are required by the government for them to use their entitlements like school, healthcare, government services, etc is obscene. Your personal beliefs stop when they hurt other people, including your children.
This is just shit that's going to be a headache for their kid later on and would have been 1000% easier to handle as the parent near their birth.
Bold of you to think these kids are going to ever see a school or hospital. They’ll be kept at home being fed the most asinine homeschooling regimen possible and their “medical care” will be essential oils and potatoes in the socks. Then they’ll die before age 8 and the parents will blame it on chemtrails
school
YoU cAn'T pUt YoUr cHiLd iN tHe iNdOcTRiNaTiOn MaCHiNe! DeFeNd YoUr RiGhT tO hOmEsChOoL WiThOuT OvErSiGhT!
The thing is, I determined much later in life that public school really was kind of an indoctrination machine (combined with a pint sized prison, run by authoritarian asshats tiny brains and big egos) and a lot of what happened to us kids there was really bullshit in retrospect. But they also taught us to read and do long division and shit, so there's that.
I dated a girl in highschool who didn't have a social security number. Her parents thought it was the mark of the beast and never registered one for her. All that did was cause her a problem when she became an adult. She had to go down and register one for herself so that she could do normal things like rent an apartment, buy a car, have a credit card, or get a job.
I didn't have one until in was 15. My dad was forced to because he couldn't claim me on his taxes anymore when the IRS made it mandatory. "That was the year seven million children vanished," according to the IRS at the time.
The frustrating thing is that he was so vehemently against it, my mother had to do it (she controlled the finances), and this led to a huge issue because I was born overseas for my dad's work. They had to drag out state department records and proof I was a US citizen, because of being born on foreign soil. It was a mess.
this is more of a problem with everything requiring social security as id. yknow, the thing specifically made not to be an id
Depends upon how long ago. Back in the 70s and 80s it was not common to apply for Social Security at birth or as a young child. It was also a bigger hassle before the internet. Some combination of phone calls, mail, and visiting the Social Security office in some cases.
You really didn't need it until you hit your teens and started to work or got your own bank account.
I think I was like 10 or 12 when I got my SSN. It wasn't any sort of protest or parental BS. Just didn't need it before then.
I think she was born in 1980, but literally everyone else I knew had a SSN their whole life. I think you're an outlier, but I'm just speaking from my own limited experience. Have you met other people your age who didn't have SSN as kids? When my son was born we just filled out a form at the hospital. I'm pretty sure they filed it for us, although I can't remember for sure, since it has been a couple of decades now.
I was born in the 60s and didn't get my social security number until I got my first job. That's the way it used to be.
At least if she had a birth certificate, it's not so bad. Still a huge, unnecessary pain in the ass, but kids without birth certificates are going to have a complete nightmare as adults (assuming they don't grow up to be as crazy as their parents). It's so, so hard. I wish sovcits would limit their bullshit to themselves and not subject their poor kids to it.
Confirm. Had to help a friend of mine rebuild her documentation from scratch because her mom, who is nuts, destroyed her birth certificate, social security paperwork, driver's license, and all other documentation apparently out of spite.
It turns out, it's very difficult to get a replacement birth certificate without the involvement of your sole remaining parent when said parent is dead set on being uncooperative. If you don't have a government photo ID, getting the other documents is impossible. And if you don't have the other documents, getting the photo ID is impossible. Chicken and the egg!
I know we have a non-profit where I live that specifically helps people with that. Usually, it's homeless people who just don't have any of their documentation anymore, but I recommended them to someone whose parent was similarly awful. I don't even know where you'd start.
It varies a bit by state. We wound up asking an attorney, and they were able to direct us towards where to get the correct forms and paperwork. We had to get signed and notarized affidavits from other surviving family members to attest that she was who she said she was, etc. It took ages, and tons of running around all over the place to this office, that office, this government building, that government building, all over the damn state.
That sounds like some major ppd if she thinks she somehow doesn't have her 2 year old
She doesn’t have them because the government owns them now. The government owns everyone with a SSN, apparently.