this post was submitted on 02 Mar 2024
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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Matrix is free and works much better and you can run your own server

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[–] [email protected] 68 points 1 year ago (14 children)

As someone deeply involved in Foss for many years and with multiple large Foss services running on my back, these constant requests for purity from outsiders will go nowhere until volunteers people step up to do the hard work of setting up and maintaining the infrastructure and management of such Foss solutions in the place of the core developers

[–] [email protected] 27 points 1 year ago (12 children)

? What's the difference between setting up a free forum (they're everywhere) versus setting up Discord channels? It's the exact same process.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Ease, convenience, existing userbase, familiarity, choose a few

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I guess we have different perspectives. Ease, convenience = forums, existing userbase? = Do you prefer Reddit for this reason?, familiarity = forums lol, search-ability = forums, privacy = forums, etc etc.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago (18 children)

Forums are not the same as real-time. And yes for most of the people using discord, forums wouldn't cover the same niche.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think you might just be blinded by Discord for some reason. I'm not sure what "niche" you're referring to with Discord that can't be provided with forums (unless you're worried about cosmetics I guess?). There are forums with real-time communications like chat, notifications, direct-messaging. I'm not trying to argue, getting your perspective is always helpful and might show something I'm missing, but your responses seem vague and not really a counter-point.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 year ago (7 children)

My perspective is of a FOSS developer with multiple communities of thousands. If you can't grasp it, that's on you. It's also why purity moralizing isn't useful. I have only so much mental bandwidth to spend on organizing and self-hosting. If people are not stepping up to do the community management and infrastructure work, I will go with the past of least resistance.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

Discourse has somewhat decent chat built in these days.

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[–] [email protected] 344 points 1 year ago (16 children)

The biggest problem with Discord is that its an information black hole. Its not properly searchable and not indexed by search engines.

Discord is fine for casual chat, but horrible when used for forum-type discussions and even worse when used for documentation.

You see the same problems being discussed and solved again and again, but you cant just "link" someone the solution like you could with a forum thread cause its spread out over 3-10 chat messages that are interleaved in-between other topics being discussed in the same room

Anything of long-term value for the project (forum-type discussions, documentation etc) should not recide in Discord

[–] [email protected] 127 points 1 year ago (2 children)

There's going to be a lot of shocked Pikachus when the inevitable enshittification hits, and suddenly they charge to host all the documentation and wiki pages. All that barely maintained stuff will just vanish overnight.

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[–] [email protected] 41 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Chat in general is so flawed when talking about multiple topics at once. At least when people dont use matrix threads, spaces and rooms correctly.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago

Any non-trivial support enquiries should be directed to log a bug report/formal support request regardless of the community platform you're using. Discord isn't any worse than IRC in this regard and we've been offering support via the latter forever.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Don't talk to discord users, they have cooties.

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[–] [email protected] 27 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I love Immich and Sharkey but both use Discord. Sharkey even used Matrix in the beginning but eventually switched to Discord. I think their reasoning was that they were often attacked by trolls etc. and that Matrix didn't had good options for moderation etc.

And while I love Matrix I fully agree. Yes there are moderation bots like Draupnir and they're good but you will need to self host them and register a user for them and and and. It's not as easy as with Discord or even Telegram bots. Also there are many Discord bots providing very fun elements like levels, reputations, roles etc. which simply do not exist or aren't even possible in Matrix as it currently is.

On top of that we have the decentralization "problem" for end users who aren't technical. They simply don't care much about privacy and they don't care if Discord stores every single message and picture in clear text forever on their servers. It's easier to create a Discord account on a centralized platform than understanding Matrix understanding which server to choose, understanding which client to choose and understanding how encryption, key management etc. works. Yes decentralization is important and great but for the average user it's still something that they do not really know which "overcomplicates" it for them.

And another point is that Matrix spaces are simply not the same as Discord servers. Channels are not as easy to manage because they are rooms on their own in Matrix and a space is not a server but rather a way to organize multiple rooms. Not every client supports spaces yet. Clients implement them differently. Then there's Element and Element X on phones confusing people new to Matrix etc. In Discord several channels can be grouped in another category. In Matrix you'd use Subspaces for that giving you the same issue as with normal spaces.

And most clients don't implement simple things on mobile like...sending multiple images at once. From the perspective of an end user that fact annoys the heck out of anyone wanting to send several pictures.

So yeah I think it's a mixture out of those things.

Matrix especially needs better bot support with bots that could be used by everyone as it is with Discord instead of being only usable by server admins or the bots creators as it is with many Matrix bots. And it does need a better solution for spaces with rooms or another thing in the specs that replicates how Discord servers work so that it's a "space" with actual "subchannels" without every space technically being it's own room dangling around in limbo and just being "sorted" into the space.

And it needs better moderation tools.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Matrix sucks, that's why most people won't use it. I'm already giving my software away for free and providing free support for it, why would I want to take up even more of my free time running and maintaining a Matrix server as well?

Sure, I could use an already available Matrix server but I already have a Discord account, all my friends and contributors do as well and the entire thing is easy to set up and use, plus I'm already running the Discord client too.

On top of this, the argument about searchability is irrelevant. Projects have been giving support via IRC forever which has all the same problems. The best thing to do for any non-trivial support inquiries is to direct the user to lodge a support ticket and always has been.

Matrix just isn't a compelling option, even if it had feature parity with Discord and was easier to use, it doesn't have any real inertia anyway.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@Kushia @brayd

installing a matrix client and creating a matrix account is exactly as complicated as installing discord app and creating an account there.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Matrix isn't the only alternative, there's also rocketchat

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (13 children)

The elephant in the room is IRC. Which continues to work fine and hosts huge FOSS communities. Self hosting it is even better as you can use a more modern version like ergo.chat than the large networks sadly utilize.

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[–] [email protected] -4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Matrix has great bots (moderation and otherwise). You just need to make your own matrix server or join one that has this stuff enabled. Developers arent „users“ they’re tech and they should absolutely be able to configure mod bots and such.

I get that matrix isnt as easy as discord and it never will be/should be. Corpo Media is an ad machine to make money. Thats why they‘re so streamlined. You can join matrix.org today and discuss with thousands of folks in many communities.

Feel like making your own? Then do it. It’s becoming easier day by day to host your own.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (4 children)

There is a big difference between "is unable to maintain bots due to lack of skills" and "is unable to maintain bots due to lack of time and motivation".

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