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‘It will be the end of democracy’: Bernie Sanders on what happens if Trump wins – and how to stop him
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 26 Feb 2024
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politics
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Well yeah, because if he wins there won't be anything past him for much of the country.
But what can you really do? Not voting is beneficial to the open christo fascists, and the only person who has any real world shot at winning an election, for some mind melting reason Joe Biden. The same Joe Biden, who despite his kinda actually not terrible first term, is currently funding a genocide as the wold watches. It's a shit choice, but this problem isnt going to be fixed this cycle. It's like punching the clock.
Not give into cynicism and participate in the democratic process? Democracy isn't something that you can set and forget, it requires constant attention and participation or it breaks. We are where we're at because the GOP and big corporations have been carefully engineering widespread burnout in a large percentage of the working class population.
Oh for sure. I'm just saying the DNC is going to put up Biden, no matter what, so that's our choice this round. Action can be taken for 2028, but be real... They're not going to change horses.
Biden isn't the only one who could win, and seems to be worse off than a generic dem in swing States, by a long shot. They're choosing the candidate again, like they did with Hillary, from the ranks of the least popular people in the US. They're shooting themselves and blaming the left and Muslims in MI already.
I agree with you completely. I think the DNC is going to do what they want, and it will take time and deliberate action to change them. This cycle is going to be a Trump/Biden election. I don't see a way around it. Here's to 2026 and 2028 for making progress with elections. In the meantime we still have to donate and support with our time.
I'll be volunteering for Biden, because that's the best cause I believe I can support during this election. Doesn't mean I'm super pumped on him being the candidate.
OK? What if Biden wins, is my question. Is the Democrat value-proposition nothing more than "periodic intervals of slightly slower slide into total fascism"?
In what way have the Democrats advocated for sliding into fascism? They're status quo politicians, not wannabe dictators like some other orange person.
Intervals of "status quo" between fascist administrations is slow-walking into full fascism.
Yes, that's correct. Slower slide means more of a chance to fix it.
No there is a lesser chance. The worse the conditions get for the more support fascism gets.
If Trump does not win this election, an even worse person will win the next one
This, so much, this, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
The Democrats are ideologically incapable of dealing with fascism, they will not address the root causes, America will have an authoritarian in office within 8 years.
Quite frankly if America can't withstand trump's decrepit, corrupt, senile version of fascism then we're just going to fall to what ever ghoul the Republicans summon next.
Fix it how? Like what's the plan? Is there a plan?
Democracy cannot be permanently "fixed", it can only be preserved via endless education and participation.
Literally the only way to "fix" democracy is to participate in it.
OK? How does that happen? Is there a Dem plan to drive democratic engagement, because they obviously haven't done a good job of it yet. It seems like fear of Repubs is the main selling point to voting Dem, and it isn't exactly a thrilling strategy.
It happens when I go canvas and vote, not complain about it on the internet like you.
Sounds like you've got it covered then.
More people voted for Biden in the 2020 election than any other candidate in American history by a pretty significant margin, voter turnout in both midterms and general elections are at their highest points in 100 years, obviously something is working
You have to know that a lot of those votes were "against Trump" more than they were "for Biden" right? Heartening to see such resistance to what Trump represents, to be sure, but it's laughable to say that Biden earned those votes.
So, what's your suggestion then?
Fuck man, I've got a lot I guess. Like the kind of shit the Repubs do, but the Dems claim powerlessness to do. Trump has shown that the rule of law only matters if there is some consequence to breaking it. So break the law. Wield the power. Especially if you genuinely feel like this will be the last ever election. Fucking declare an emergency, arrest Trump and everyone else involved in J6. Send the military to reassert power over the national border in Texas. Break up media monopolies, and nationalize telecoms. Why the fuck would you risk losing an election to a criminal gang who want to end democracy?
The supreme Court is slow-rolling determining whether or not a president is liable for criminal activity in office until after the election. If they determine now, then either trump gets held accountable, or Biden has immunity from crimes in office, and can plainly jail or order a hit on trump and a good chunk of Congress.
Obviously though, the president is not immune from the consequences of crimes committed while in the office.
I just don't understand how you can believe that the supreme court can't or won't just ignore precedent.
A this point, I think Judge Judy has more integrity than the SC. They are gonna do what they were put there to do, give cover for republicans to undermine human rights.
Your suggestions are very tempting, I must say. We don't want to sleepwalk into fascism. It could be 1930s Germany all over again.
Trump and many of his gang were arrested already, though, and are facing trial. So far, the verdicts have shown that the justice system is still somewhat functional. I don't think it makes sense to flip the table as long as the justice system continues to hold Trump and his ilk accountable. Taking it to the next level and declaring an emergency would accomplish what, exactly? He has already been charged, so would the point of the emergency declaration be to skip the trial phase and go straight to hanging? Essentially it means outlawing Trumpism, which means purging the GOP, which means civil war. No one wants civil war as long as there is a chance to beat Trump constitutionally.
We had a situation in Canada in the 90s where our second largest province had a very serious vote on whether to separate from Canada. It would have literally ended the country as we know it. It was certainly tempting to arrest the leaders for treason to save the country. However, that would certainly have led to either a civil war or the Quebecois equivalent of the IRA in Canada. So, we persevered through the vote and the remainers won by about 1%, as I recall. We saved the country by the skin of our teeth, but through legitimate democratic means, and so the result was respected.
Yeah, purge them. As absolutely awful as a civil war would be, I say that it is preferable to risk it now than cordially handing over the reins of power to these clowns from hell. For one, civil war is by no means guaranteed. For all our big talk, most Americans will go along with 'the program', whether it's purges of fascists or purges of minorities. I'm afraid we have to choose one, and I much prefer the former.
I wish I could confidently disagree with you, but I can't.
All those possibilities pretty much went out the window when the Democrats nominated Biden. Even if Biden was as left as we would like him to be, he is a technocrat who sees the norms as vital to maintaining the legitimacy of government.
I don't even necessarily disagree that maintaining legitimacy is vital, but I'd put representing the people over donors a notch higher than maintaining norms.
I don't actually think they were ever possibilities. Even if Bernie had won, his own party would have trampled over the repubs in order to impeach him first lol.
I don't think so. The more people actually hear Bernie speak, the more they like him. He wouldn't be hiding from the public like Biden, he would be leading rallies on the Whitehouse lawn. If Bernie had access to the bully pulpit, impeaching him would be political suicide.
It's a nice thought, at least :)