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2024-11-11

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Three Million Years Ago, Our Ancestors Were Vegetarian (www.wits.ac.za)

submitted 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/24943429

Human ancestors like Australopithecus – which lived around 3.5 million years ago in southern Africa – ate very little to no meat, according to new research published in the scientific journal Science. This conclusion comes from an analysis of nitrogen isotope isotopes in the fossilized tooth enamel of seven Australopithecus individuals. The data revealed that these early hominins primarily relied on plant-based diets, with little to no evidence of meat consumption.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

The study Meta-Analysis of Randomized Controlled Trials of Red Meat Consumption in Comparison With Various Comparison Diets on Cardiovascular Risk Factors analyzed 6 RCT’s that compared red meat to plant-based protein sources and finds that the plant-based protein sources consistently result in better blood lipids and lipoproteins compared with red meat

Thats a interesting paper, unfortunately the endpoints they used where lipoproteins and not all cause mortality. LDL is not the villain it has been made out to be. https://hackertalks.com/post/6054186

I agree if you want to lower your LDL PBF and Seed oils are a great way to do it. I don't agree that lowering your LDL as the only goal is healthy.

In comparison with control diets, plant-based diets improved Homeostatic Model Assessment for Insulin Resistance https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/16/13/2110

Yes! Reducing sugar and carbs is great for metabolic health. Totally agreed

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/ATVBAHA.120.314838 (observational)

Right, Observational and FFQs.

interviewers asked the participants open-ended questions about dietary consumption of 100 food categories that referenced 1609 separate food items within the past month. Foods consumed were assigned to 1 of 166 food groups devised by the Minnesota Nutrition Coordinating Center.

In this study Low Carbohydrate group was defined as 43% carbs, or 161 Carbs per day. Which is well above a ketogenic metabolism, so does not apply to LCHF/Keto or Carnivore.

Thanks for all the links and papers, its a little overwhelming when you throw so many at once. One paper at a time will make discussion easier. I've look at the data and I'm still comfortable with my choices, and stand behind my statements that ASF is being incorrectly vilified.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

You're setting up impossible criteria for what studies you will accept as evidence against your position by saying you will only accept RCT's with all-cause mortality as the end point as evidence. Like I said, nobody does this for studying diet...

You seem to have a double standard for what qualifies as sufficient evidence against your view vs. for your view, as evidenced by the fact you think that the context of a keto or carnivore diet would completely reverse clearly evident trends despite a complete lack of evidence. Where are your RCT's with all-cause mortality as an end point studying the keto diet? Where are your RCT's showing that increasing LDL-C and apo-B does not increase CVD risk over lifespan-scale experiments?

You conveniently chose to ignore the Mendelian randomization studies on LDL-C and apo-B.

Your view on ldl-c and apo-b goes against expert consensus (https://www.lipidjournal.com/article/S1933-2874(24)00240-X/fulltext, https://www.jacc.org/doi/10.1016/j.jacc.2022.07.006, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28444290/), there is very compelling evidence that both, especially apo-b, have a causal role in long-term CVD progression.

While the conversation has been interesting, I feel that continued exchange will not be particularly productive.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Again, I'm not trying to change your mind. I frankly am happy you have chosen a different path.

Where are your RCT's showing that increasing LDL-C and apo-B does not increase CVD risk over lifespan-scale experiments?

I literally linked you a RCT in the above post showing LDL being protective for all cause mortality

Mendelian randomization

I do not consider this any more serious evidence than observational. Randomizing observational studies is an interesting way to determine where your next research should be, but not to draw conclusions.

evidence pyramid

While the conversation has been interesting, I feel that continued exchange will not be particularly productive.

Agreed. I don't think either of us are making progress with the other. And that's okay. We can both exist taking separate choices.

keto or carnivore diet would completely reverse clearly evident trends despite a complete lack of evidence.

This is unfair, because I have provided that information above, I've read all of your links. I don't think you've read any of mine. To be quite frank, I think you've already decided what the right outcome is, you're going through the motions to overwhelm me, but not to engage in an actual intellectual discovery. We're not having a conversation, you're throwing papers at me. That's why we're not progressing

[–] [email protected] 1 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago)

I did read your links, I think it is very interesting but doesn't really move the needle much when we have so much evidence to the contrary

Some Commentary on the linked RCT: https://nutritionsource.hsph.harvard.edu/2016/04/13/diet-heart-ramsden-mce-bmj-comments/. https://ebm.bmj.com/content/21/5/185.full

The study design, in mental health patients, of creating so many artificial foods with corn oil/ omega 6 and no omega 3 as well as the limited monitoring of cholesterol levels and limited length of the study also limits the interpretation of the results. The potential correlation of sudden cholesterol drop with mortality can also be confounded by sudden weight loss, which correlates with diseases like cancer.

Meta analysis of 60 RCT’s linking LDL-C lowering therapies with reduced CVD events:

https://www.atherosclerosis-journal.com/article/S0021-9150(24)01108-0/fulltext

How do you explain how statins reduce risk of CVD events or why those with familial hypercholesterolemia have such high rates of CVD?

It also still does nothing to address apo-b…