this post was submitted on 04 Jun 2024
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Trump in 2016:

She shouldn't be allowed to run.
If she were to win this election, it would create an unprecedented constitutional crisis.
In that situation we could very well have a sitting president under felony indictment and ultimately a criminal trial.
It would grind the government to a halt.

Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/donald-trump-trial-guilty-hillary-clinton-b2556563.html

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[–] [email protected] 59 points 6 months ago (2 children)

When I see comments talking about how pointless it is to continue pointing out his hypocritical actions I immediately write that person off as a bot.

If you're struggling to figure out why it's important to show this to his stupid constituents then I don't understand why you're even commenting. Sit back and let the people interested in effecting change spread this information and shut the fuck up.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago

If you’re struggling to figure out why it’s important to show this to his stupid constituents then I don’t understand why you’re even commenting. Sit back and let the people interested in effecting change spread this information and shut the fuck up.

What I'm struggling with is to find evidence from past events which would lead you to believe his voters are going to be changed by showing them any of this. You've got the folks who do not care because they are Trump cultists, then you have the folks who would vote for Satan himself if he had R next to his name.

Everyone else is already not going to vote for him.

So what change do we think showing this to his supporters is going to effect?

[–] [email protected] 22 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (3 children)

I think it should definitely be pointed out, constantly, how much of a hypocrite and liar Trump is, just to get it (and keep it) on the record. Ignoring it would only normalize it more. And maybe some fence sitters didn't know about it and now they do. Which is a good thing.

At the same time, however, I also believe it's absolutely pointless, if your goal is to convince any of his followers. They already know all of this and they don't care. They don't love him despite the lies and hypocrisy. They love him because of it. And even if they don't like it per se, they still won't turn against him, because they're accepting way worse and nothing has been a deal breaker so far.

Edit: I have often wondered what Trump would have to do for his followers to abandon him. Is there anything they wouldn't accept?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 months ago

Regarding your edit (i. e., what would it take for Trump followers to change their mind), go hit YouTube with a search for "Jordan Klepper fingers the pulse" and watch some of those. A more recent one, in which he speaks to Niki Haley supporters, demonstrates what are likely "more reasonable" Republicans regarding Trump, and probably best answers your question. Most feature him speaking to Trump supporters at Trump rallies. One features him talking to supporters during (yes, you read that correctly) the January 6 insurrection. Watching these will help understand the entrenched mindset. Hilarious and horrifying.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 months ago (2 children)

The mental exercise is... what would Biden have to do to get you to vote for the Republican Party? Or even to get you to just not vote at all? I know it's a false equivalency, but it gives you some sense of the lines we all draw in the sand, and the "activation energy" that it takes to change our minds.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 6 months ago (1 children)

He could be as overtly criminal as Donald, taking money from Russia and the Saudis in exchange for top secret documents and lists of CIA agents, and I'd still be voting as long as he doesn't also do an insurrection. FPTP and having all Repubs back a criminal as their preferred leader has really backed me into a corner.

IDK that the mental exercise is helpful in 2024. If the point is to say that they feel the same about Biden, that's because they have been brainwashed by far-right propaganda. The activation energy it takes to sway them is cult deprogramming.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago

Overtly criminal or overtly fascist?

I could back a criminal if I found the reason to be morally sound. Let's not forget that some crimes, morally speaking, were the right thing to do (think hiding jews during the holocaust as an extreme example, and maybe possession of certain drugs as an example of something morally ambiguous that wouldn't keep me from voting for a good candidate)

Using campaign money to pay hush money? That's just in line with the shit Donny already does; it's dishonest as all hell and definitely not morally sound. He's also clearly a fascist.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Actively supporting a genocide with billions of USD in goods seems like a great reason to not vote for Biden anymore

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

I would say strategic voting for biden at this point to prevent Donny from winning is a fine reason to vote Biden right now.

Let's not forget that their system is broken and unless you vote one of those two parties, your vote doesn't matter, and Donny wants your vote to matter even less. Even just to attempt to uphold political democracy it's worth voting Biden, but that's what he's riding on and that's a fucking shame.

By all means, if the alternative wasn't thrusting the US into fascism, I would absolutely say don't vote for the person supporting genocide, alas that is not the case.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago (1 children)

okay, that's the first half... so since you're going to not vote because of gaza, it stands to reason that it's possible that someone would choose not to vote for Trump if he said he wasn't going to let Israel ethnically-cleanse gaza. It's all about putting yourself in someone else's shoes. Thanks for participating!

[–] [email protected] -2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I'm not even a US citizen but ok

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

ah. So the true answer to what would it take for me to not vote for Biden was "nothing." I guess the question for you is, what would it take to get you to cast a valid vote for a US democrat president and why aren't you doing it?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 6 months ago

So the true answer to what would it take for me to not vote for Biden was "nothing."

For me yeah. I'm just saying I sympathise with all those who think Biden crossed their "activation energy" line by supporting Israel's genocide for this long.

what would it take to get you to cast a valid vote for a US democrat president

A good track record. I'd want to vote for Bernie if I could, after hearing the fire in his voice and knowing he means it.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Is there anything they wouldn’t accept

Find them and ask them.

Discussing on forums like these is all find and good, but in the end it's lots of Preaching To The Choir. What people need to do is find a Red Hatter and ask them what it would take to choose their country over their party.

Outreach will win the day.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Well, I get what you're saying, but I'm European and while there are plenty of right-wingers here, I haven't met any actual obvious Trumpers so far, though I'm sure plenty of them do like Trump.

Was just kinda wondering 'out loud' if there is an actual line somewhere and what it would be. It seems to me it's much easier for democrats to turn against their politicians than it is for republicans.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I'm Canadian, but I can still tell you why Democrats are more likely to turn against their own politicians.

People who vote Democrat tend to be more educated, and academics tend to lean left. The left-leaning academics are far more left leaning than the Democratic party and are aware that, while the Democrats are the lesser of two evils, they still stand to uphold the status quo for the ruling class, whereas the Republicans have devolved into explicit fascism.

Because the Republicans have fallen into fascism, the people who vote Republican are either undereducated and fall for the propaganda or they're part of the ruling class and want more money.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago

I hadn't really thought about the link to education much. I kind of figured that democrats just have more.. deal breakers than republicans, mostly due to empathy (which.. I don't think it's linked to education?). If you don't like hurting people, if you care about other people (and not just the ones you know), then there will obviously be a lot of things you won't accept.

But caring about the truth and reality and science is important, so I guess you do have a point.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Find them and ask them.

You have apparently had much more productive conversations with trumpers than I ever have.

ask them what it would take to choose their country over their party.

And, it's not hard to predict their answers.

  • Treat trans people like monsters and pedophiles, and legislate as such.
  • Knock gays back to the 80s or earlier via legislation
  • The rest of the queer community needs to STFU and pretend they don't exist.
  • Cancel all DEI programs and make them illegal
  • Immigration? No thank you!
  • Make Pride month celebrations illegal at all businesses or public areas
  • Follow the DeSantis model of history teaching, by trying to claim slavery was a benefit to slaves, or that Rosa Parks was just having a bad day and sat at the wrong end of the bus, etc
  • Support police without question - as long as it's the blacks, gays, antifa, and left-leaning protesters they are beating up on
  • Eliminate birth control and abortions nationally
  • Put back all those civil war memorials because muh heritage
  • Restrict college and high school curricula to Republican-approved materials on a national level
  • Cease all climate-change measures or spending
  • Acknowledge there is no solution to gun violence that involves restricting the activities of gun owners.

That's pretty close to the list for anyone who is flying a Trump flag. And if it's not on their list, it's still not a dealkiller.

Outreach will win the day.

You'd need to put me in kevlar and pay me a lot to go knocking on maga doors all day.

Edit: (I promise I know who Rosa Parks and Harriet Tubman were, I just flipped the name by accident in my haste!) https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/rosa-parks-race-removed-florida-textbook/

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 months ago (2 children)

I love "Harriet Tubman on a bus," that's exactly what they would teach in a DeSantized history class.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago

LOL while you are correct, I'm ashamed to say that was a mistake on my part, I just typed the wrong name.

I was referring to their attempt to whitewash what happened with Rosa Parks.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/22/us/florida-textbook-race-rosa-parks-reaj/index.html

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/rosa-parks-race-removed-florida-textbook/