this post was submitted on 18 Dec 2024
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Science Memes

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[–] [email protected] 40 points 3 days ago (11 children)

I never understood this weird hangup, it's like people struggling to reconcile free will with deterministic actions to a being outside normal time. Of course you'll make the same choices if you rewound time and changed nothing... You're the same, the universe is the same down to the last particle - how does that conflict with the idea of agency?

Consciousness is an emergent property. One neuron is complex, but 1000 can do things one could never do alone. Why is it so surprising that billions, arranged in complex self organizing structures, would give rise to something more than the sum of its parts?

Maybe there's a quantum aspect to it, maybe there's not... It seems like it's all based in this idea humans are so extra special that surely there must be special laws of the universe just for us

[–] [email protected] 12 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Maybe there's a quantum aspect to it, maybe there's not...

I see what you did there, intentionally or not.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 days ago

Heh. It was unintentional, next time it won't be

[–] [email protected] 7 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Yep. This was the issue people took with Chomsky's approach to language, basically the same sentiment. Humans are "special" in some way. It underlines the basis of almost all cognitive, neuroscience, and language research for decades.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 days ago (9 children)

It's crazy to me how much this holds us back, and the amount of cognitive dissonance involved

Take pets. We look at them acting shifty around the sock they know they aren't allowed to play with, and say "she's thinking about it". We avoid words like "walk" because they've understood one of the meanings of it. And usually not just the meaning, but the difference between tone and context - most won't react the same to "should we take her for a walk" and "is he able to walk". My mom's dog knew all of our names, and the difference between "soon", "tomorrow", and "the day after tomorrow" - she would watch the door all day on the right day

And yet, most people will share all of these observations and turn around to dismiss it as "she's just a dog". For them it's just association and behavioral conditioning, but the same things are different for humans because we're extra special. Clearly her acting shifty before stealing the sock isn't planning or considering, it's instincts fighting against training

But only humans can ever understand, only we make choices. Because we're extra special

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 days ago

This gets explored a bit in The Talos Principle and it's sequal. Working on the 2nd one now, it's been fun

[–] [email protected] 39 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Calling it a lump of fat is a bit like calling the Milky Way a very sparse field of hydrogen

[–] [email protected] 31 points 3 days ago (2 children)
[–] [email protected] 10 points 3 days ago

Right, but it doesn't capture the whole story, namely that it's arranged in a very particular way

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 3 days ago (7 children)

To my knowledge there are interesting quantum-mechanical effects at play as well though. There's a lot of esoterical nonsense around that of course, however first discoveries pointing into this direction are quite promising.

I always remember a quote from Alan Watts talking about this topic: "You are the universe experiencing itself". The idea of consciousness being an emerging property of the universe itself makes most sense to me, and the non-deterministic properties of quantum mechanics open this possibility.

Definitely more inspiring to think about it this way than just as a lump of fat.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago

Gnosticism, one of the oldest known religions that is thought to be the forefather of all religion, taught about that.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago

maybe but he's a skinny guy

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[–] [email protected] 39 points 3 days ago (1 children)

consciousness is stored in the balls

[–] [email protected] 27 points 3 days ago

Next to the microplastic.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 days ago

I've never understood why people think the most sophisticated and complex technology humans have ever been aware of is too mundane just because we have scratched the surface of understanding it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago
[–] [email protected] 13 points 3 days ago (1 children)

people don't like this idea because if that's all we are, then who is anyone to say that the inevitable equivalent man-made lump of fat with electrical activity isn't entitled to all the same rights and status that we are

also jeebus doesn't want you to think you can't go on getting punished even after you're dead

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 days ago (1 children)

honestly I never got this. Same with the simulation thing. What's it matter if we're in a simulation or all I ever do is the result of some salty fat firing off neurons? I mean what am I going to do about that?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

people used to get burnt at the stake for this shit. and dont' forget how butthurt people got over the suggestion that --gasp-- the earth isn't the center of the universe

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I'm aware it's controversial, I just genuinely do not get why you would care.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 days ago (1 children)

because when you have deeply entrenched religious indoctrination, ideas about the world, life, and reality that don't mesh with your "god" are literally personal attacks on your very identity.

some people care about this shit more than they care about anything else. you should get rid of the assumption that things need to make sense to these people

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

you should get rid of the assumption that things need to make sense to these people

trust me I don't but especially if I pick up the simulation thing that also seems to concern a lot of people who aren't religious. I mean I get the religious people, it's in direct affront to the axioms you structure your entire shit around. That makes sense to me, even if I don't share the axioms.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 days ago

the simulation thing implies we don't have "free will" or that we don't have control over our life (which we don't anyway), and that scares people half to death. so, classic denial

[–] [email protected] 13 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Don't sell yourself short. It's a salty lump of fat.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 days ago

It’s OK. Consciousness is but a brief anomaly in the vast sea of time.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 3 days ago (2 children)

The brain is not a "lump of fat". If you desiccate the brain, most of what's left are lipids, yes, but at that point you are not conscious anymore. The brain is a mix of proteins, carbohydrates, water and fat.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (2 children)

Also fairly sure that electrical impulses alone cannot account for consciousness. If that were "all" there was to it we'd have simulated a human brain by now. There's a few theories about quantum processes being involved but this isn't exactly easily proven.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 days ago (1 children)

To simulate a human brain, we would need a complete map of it. We don't have that yet. If the quantum theories around neurons are correct, then the map would be incomplete without it.

I doubt we could simulate it directly without a very specialized ASIC.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 days ago

The connectome doesn't really seem to be so realistic, at smaller scales sure.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 3 days ago (2 children)

If that were "all" there was to it we'd have simulated a human brain by now.

Didn't it take them a long ass time to do this for a fruit fly brain?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago

I thought they were up to mice now but I might be mistaken.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 days ago

Depends on when you start the timer. The fruit fly brain was only completely mapped recently. There's a simulation of it that runs on a laptop. If that simulation can run on a modern laptop and the map was otherwise available, then it likely could have been done on supercomputers in the decades prior.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 3 days ago (2 children)

A lump of mostly fat then? Seems needlessly specific.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 days ago

I’M NOT FAT I’M JUST BIG BRAINED!!

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 days ago

Mostly water, in that case

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