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Every time I open a js file from some project I have to tweak to use on my website, I get a brain aneurysm. that shit should never have been invented. python in the browser is the dream we are not allowed to have.
ps: I am just a hobbyist ! so take it lightly.
Somebody should write a python to javascript transpiler for the web...
(please don't actually do that)
There's a Python WASM runtime, if you really want to run python in a browser for some reason...
This plus Mojo has me feeling better about just wanting to stick to python. I gotta dable in go and rust because not everything is my project (thank God), but I can't wait till performance python syntax is the norm
Ok after reading the article this is bullshit. It's only because they are counting JavaScript and Typescript separately.
Yeah I really would love to use Python instead on JavaScript natively for the same use case.
Yeesh on both counts.
Also some projects are using web assembly to make frontend python frameworks such as this one https://github.com/kkinder/puepy
Edit: wrong project
Thanks, AI.
Thank god, Javascript is a mess.
Iโll still plug Scala for having the beauty of Python, the ecosystem of Java, the correctness of Rust, the concurrency of Go, and the power of Lisp.
Typescript is far nicer than Python though. Well I will give Python one point: arbitrary precision integers was absolutely the right decision. Dealing with u64s in Typescript is a right pain.
But apart from that it's difficult to see a single point on which Python is clearly better than Typescript:
uv is a shining beacon of light here but I have little hope that the upstream Python devs will recognise that they need to immediately ditch pip in favour of officially endorsing uv. No. They'll keep it on the sidelines until the uv devs run out of hope and money and give up.What is so bad about virtual environments? I found them to be really nice and useful when I developed in Python over about 5-ish years. It was really nice being able to have separate clean environments for installing libraries and executing things.
Granted, I only used Python as a solo developer, so if there are shortcomings that emerge when working with other developers, then I would not be aware of them....
Edit: also, performance is a bit more of a subtle topic. For numerical logic, Python actually is (probably) much better than a lot of its competitors thanks to numpy and numexpr. For conditional logic, I would agree that it's not the best, but when you consider developer velocity, it's a clearly worthwhile tradeoff since frameworks like Django are so popular.
Language sanity. Theyโre pretty on par here I think
[1] + [2]
"12"
A sane language, you say.
const foo = 'hello'
const bar = { foo: 'world'}
console.log(bar)
// { "foo": "world" }
the absolute dog shit pile of vomit that is Pip & venv
I've worked professionally in python for several years and I don't think it's ever caused a serious problem. Everything's in docker so you don't even use venv.
A sane language, you say.
Yes:
Operator '+' cannot be applied to types 'number[]' and 'number[]'.
We're talking about Typescript here. Also I did say that it has some big warts, but you can mostly avoid them with ESLint (and Typescript of course).
Let's not pretend Python doesn't have similar warts:
>>> x = -5
>>> y = -5
>>> x is y
True
>>> x = -6
>>> y = -6
>>> x is y
False
>>> x = -6; y = -6; x is y
True
>>> isinstance(False, int)
True
>>> [f() for f in [lambda: i for i in range(10)]]
[9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9]
There's a whole very long list here. Don't get be wrong, Python does a decent job of not being crazy. But so does Typescript+ESLint.
Iโve worked professionally in python for several years and I donโt think itโs ever caused a serious problem. Everythingโs in docker so you donโt even use venv.
"It's so bad I have resorted to using Docker whenever I use Python."
Why would you use the is operator like that?
The lambda thing is from late binding, which I've had come up at work once. https://docs.python-guide.org/writing/gotchas/#late-binding-closures.
โItโs so bad I have resorted to using Docker whenever I use Python.โ
Do you not use containers when you deploy ? Everywhere I've worked in the past like 10 years has moved to containers.
Also this is the same energy as "JavaScript is so bad you've resorted to using a whole other language: Typescript"
To your point, typescript does solve a lot of problems. But the language it's built on top of it is extremely warty. Maybe we agree on that.
Why would you use the is operator like that?
Why would you add two arrays like that?
Do you not use containers when you deploy
No because I am not using Python to make a web app. That's not the only thing people write you know...
JavaScript is so bad youโve resorted to using a whole other language: Typescript
Well yeah. Typescript isn't really a new language. It's just type annotations for JavaScript (except for enums; long story). But yes JavaScript is pretty bad without Typescript.
But Typescript isn't a cop-out like Docker is.
But the language itโs built on top of it is extremely warty. Maybe we agree on that.
Yeah definitely. You need to ban the warts but Typescript & ESLint do a pretty good job of that.
I mean I would still much rather write Dart or Rust but if I had to pick between Typescript and Python there's absolutely no way I'd pick Python (unless it was for AI).
I write mostly Python for 5 years and uv is indeed the best thing that happened to the Python landscape during this period.
I disagree that typescript is far nicer; even syntax-wise, type annotated Python seems much easier to read, write, and refactor; but I'll give that Python needs to ditch pip and "requirements.txt" for good.
The only problem is that it also has the complexity of C++.
Not the foot-shooting complexity though, just the extra-power complexity
You can enable the foot-shooting complexity by writing modules for Python in C++, since it's very easy to do. Why do I know this? Well...
Scala does look nice. Just a quick syntax view makes me want to give it a whirl when I want an alternative to Python. I used to code in C++, and C#. I use G'MIC (DSL) as my main. Scala seems right up my alley.
I code both typescript and python professionally, and python is almost as much of a mess, just a different kind of mess. The package manager ecosystem is all over the place, nobody is agreeing on a build system, and the type system is still unable to represent fairly simple concepts when it comes to function typing. Also tons of libraries just ignore types altogether. I love it, but as a competitor to JavaScript in the messiness department it's not a good horse.
the type system is still unable to represent fairly simple concepts when it comes to function typing
what do you mean by this?
My biggest pet peeve is the complete inability to annotate a set of known exceptions that a function raises in a machine readable way. The discussion about it is quite heated.
In fairness that approach hasn't really worked in other languages. It was so unpopular in C++ that they actually removed the feature, which is almost unheard of. Java supports it too but it's pretty rarely used in my experience. The only place I've seen it used is in Android. It's unpopular enough there that Kotlin doesn't support it.
types are always ignored at runtime, they're only useful when developing
Yeah, they're useful when developing, which is why it's so frustrating when libraries don't implement types. I'm developing and I'm trying to use a tool that supposedly fits a use case I have, but the tool didn't come with instructions so it's practically useless to me. I could open the tool up and look at its guts to figure it out but are you kidding me no, I'm not going back to the stone age for your tool.
They ignore types all together because typing is optional in python.
All documentation is optional and ignored at runtime, that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. If your library doesn't have type hints I'm just not gonna use it, I don't have the time to figure out what you accept or return.
It means they have the option to do it or not do it and you have the option to not use it, which clearly your exercising. I've personally never had a situation where a lack of type hints slowed me down even a little.
I dunno if you're being deliberately obtuse, but just in case you really did miss his point: the fact that type hints are optional (and not especially popular) means many libraries don't have them. It's much more painful to use a library without type hints because you lose all of their many benefits.
This obviously isn't a problem in languages that require static types (Go, Rust, Java, etc..) and it isn't a problem with Typescript because static types are far more popular in JavaScript/Typescript land so it's fairly rare to run into a library that doesn't have them.
And yeah you can just not use the library at all but that's just ignoring the problem.
True, but if you're looking at a Python library that doesn't have type hints in 2024, then chances are that it's not very good and/or not very well maintained.
Well, indeed. Unfortunately there are still a fair number of them. The situation is definitely improving at least.