this post was submitted on 27 Sep 2024
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[–] [email protected] 25 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (10 children)

Forcing you to shut up or go to court isn't great either, though.

On the big stuff where they're liable for a lot of money and you might be able to get a pro bono lawyer, sure.

On the small stuff, though, the prospect of having to pay for a lawyer and likely have your case thrown out by a judge for not being worth the expense and effort of suing a foreign company is probably going to deter a LOT of legitimate claims.

If, for example, I want to return a game in accordance with the rules and they won't let me, I'm not gonna lawyer up and sue them from the other side of the Atlantic.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Good point.

What's the alternative?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Let the user choose. Arbitration is great for small things, not huge damages. Court is better for that.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Can anyone ELI5 this to me? Arbitration is a big scary word that I don't understand.

[–] [email protected] 39 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

If you and your friend get into a argument over something on the playground, instead of going to a teacher, you both agree to tell your stories to another friend you both agree will be impartial. You then both do what that friend says without involving the teacher.

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[–] [email protected] 28 points 2 weeks ago

Instead of Steam forcing any disputes with them to go through an "impartial" 3rd party company they choose and pay for to oversee and rule on disputes, they are saying that disputes must go through the courts.

Basically forced arbitration has always been seen as anti-consumer and unfair because the company is paying for the arbitration and is thus considered more likely to be found in favor of. Steam is doing the opposite and as such this is seen as pro-consumer and a good thing

[–] [email protected] 213 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

Also, take note how they actually tell you, clearly and concisely, what has changed. Most ToS are intentionally made difficult to read to, you know, discourage people from reading them.

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[–] [email protected] 98 points 2 weeks ago (11 children)

I appreciate this. That said, I was playing a game on my Steamdeck last night when this popped up over the game, while the game was running. Subsequently I died in the game. Kinda shit.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 weeks ago

I got mine smack in the middle of a boss fight in Remnant 2 lol, but my build is stupidly tanky enough that I was able alt-tab close it fast enough to not even die. Felt a little proud of that.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Same, during a boss fight in Elden Ring. I died.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 weeks ago

Time to sue!

[–] [email protected] 29 points 2 weeks ago

That is shit, but also just a little funny.

Then again I love Dark Souls so this may just be the ptsd talking.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I had it pop up while I was in the middle of a raid boss in WoW, lol

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

Most MMOs have a steam launcher, they tend to work better than the native launcher from my experience with them

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Same here, playing Sins of a Solar Empire 2 with a buddy. We both got the popup.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 weeks ago

Stellaris for me, at least in those games it's not instant death, lol.

I did however close the pop-up to go see what it was saying before agreeing to it.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 weeks ago

It popped up on my secondary monitor and I wasn't using it, so I didn't see it all day

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 weeks ago

Yeah, I'm all for the move, but don't be dicks about interrupting.

Still, right choice otherwise.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 weeks ago

Same, popped up while in the middle of Satisfactory

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[–] [email protected] 24 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

As I saw in another post:

This is because a lot of individuals tried to start an arbitration process with valve and that got costly for Valve. So now they try to force everyone to do it in a different way.

More info in other posts:

https://lemmy.ml/comment/13944017

https://lemmy.world/comment/12586412

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Arbitration is always cheaper and faster than the courts, because the courts are very backed up especially since the pandemic, and there's a lot of admin cost which doesn't exist in arbitration. That is why almost every other company is trying to force arbitration. So if the goal was to save money, forcing court would have the opposite effect.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

If you push everybody into a class action, it will be cheaper. Have you ever gotten more than a cent on the dollar from a class action settlement(unless you're the class representative)? Sure the seem like the settlements are a lot of money, but if you can get the class action settled with very few claimants, no one will be able to sue over that particular issue again, so it puts it behind the company. Instead of being dogged by individuals for however long.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

my wife got a few hundred bucks from a feminine hygiene product, unless you count that as "cents on the dollar" meaning a percentage of the final amount - in which case, that's the case in every settlement.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

What I meant by cents on the dollar is usually, they broke rules, make $100 billion from it (imaginary scenario), and then the settlement from that wrong doing sees them pay out $2 billion to the affected customers that joined the class. It may be due to the fact that I've not paid attention to too many class action suits, but it seems like the settlement never comes close to the harm they caused.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

If you push everybody into arbitration, you've already got the arbitrator in your pocket and your costs will still be less than litigation in 99% of cases - even class action. I don't think you understand just how long and expensive and unpredictable litigation can actually be, but I've brought suit before so I do. It took four and a half years to get an initial court date from first filing the complaint. Not the trial, just a date so the judge could hear the facts of the case and opening statements from attorneys. Four and a half years of paying my attorneys, as a private individual, with a lot less money than you might think. And they were giving me mate's rates; I've worked with companies where the legal work billings were in the tens of thousands per day for a single participating law office. That shit is expensive.

Maybe Valve did this to fuck their customers, but they don't really have a track record of that, and since in the majority of cases arbitration is without question an anti-consumer move, I'd say that if your aim is to paint Valve to be the villains for this then it's going to be an uphill battle.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I can tell you that I have arbitration on going, and it's been well over a year that it has been happening. To assume that the arbitration wraps up in a month, when you've got lawyers involved is non-sense. I don't believe arbitrators are in anyone's pocket either. The arbitrators aren't in-house council for Valve, they are a company Valve has contracted with, and they're going to be neutral, and rule based on law, not who's paying. As a lot of arbitration rules state that if you take the case to arbitration and lose, the one that is ruled against pays for the cost of the arbitration. Based on the "mate's rates", I'm guessing you're UK based. I don't know that legal system, so can't say how fee structures work. But a great deal of lawyers that are suing on behalf of you, in the US, take a percentage of the settlement. So the biggest cost is all to the person being sued, as they do pay the lawyers by the hour instead of a cut of the ruling.

I don't think Valve is changing their rules to screw customers, I think they're doing it because they've found separating each case into a different arbitration claim is too expensive. And it would have been better for them all to be in one group. I believe Valve is the best game distributor, as it turns out. But if people with law degrees think they've broken rules, I'm all for punishing rule-breaking. In this particular scenario, it seems like it might slightly improve things for consumers, and greatly benefit small studios.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 weeks ago

My thought was that a lawsuit is more expensive than arbitration, but settling a class action lawsuit is cheaper than thousands of arbitrations.

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