this post was submitted on 21 Sep 2024

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Which alternatives to the Framework laptop? (lemmy.aisteru.ch)

submitted 8 hours ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

24 comments fedilink hide all child comments

I am looking to buy a new laptop, and I'd be interested in the Framework laptop. What I like are the replaceability and upgradeability of parts, and the fact it is not (to my knowledge) tied to any large corporation.

However, they are not available for Switzerland, and there is no telling if and when they will be. I'm not dead set on having replaceable parts, but I'd at least like to have something that would not cause issues if I were to install a Linux distrib' on it (I had a Surface Pro, and had trouble setting up a Mint on it due to missing drivers for the keyboard). And helping smaller companies is a nice plus.

What would your recommendations be?

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 hours ago

im not sure this applies to Switzerland but Framework now allows freight forwarding within the EU it seems (it also seems recent as most older discussion says it was prohibited).

https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/eu-unsupported-SJByUb7a

Also, I think a delivery to Switzerland is not too far out as they have finalized a keyboard layout a while ago and this is a necessary step before delivery.

https://community.frame.work/t/request-review-of-norwegian-portuguese-swedish-swiss-slovenian-thai-hungarian-and-danish-keyboards/26949

(Notice how there is Sweden in that list which is now available for a laptop to order too officially).

I'm hoping these countries get expanded to soon!

[–] [email protected] 13 points 5 hours ago

Old Thinkpad 😎

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 hours ago

Depending on your needs, I ordered a Lenovo X1 carbon with Fedora on it direct from Lenovo. It is awesome and I'd be surprised if Lenovo doesn't ship to Switzerland.

I also just received a framework 13 for one of my family members and tbh it's pretty amazing. Might be worth looking into a mail forwarding service.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago) (1 children)

There is a company similar to Framework that is called Why! (With the !). Their headquarter is in Switzerland and they propose PCs that are easily repairable for a price a little cheaper if I remember. They follow the same principles as Framework, give it an eye!

[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

I have to say, they really should come up with a different name. Searching and finding the website for a company named "Why!" is pretty much impossible with today's search engines.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 hours ago

Ahah, that's true, your best bet is to search the full name of the company: why! open computing

[–] [email protected] 11 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

I have been using Linux on laptops as main/only compute since around 1997 (started with an Inspiron 4000, PII-400 IIRC), Dell is generally extremely boring and very Linux/BSD compatible. I have been buying gently used Precision models (typically using local marketplace, Craigslist in USA) as they tend to have better build quality and non-janky custom parts (think "winmodem"). They last forever, pretty much every Linux/BSD distro works. The most important thing is to stay away from Broadcom chips and look for Intel eth/wifi. Stay away from Inspiron to avoid hardware problems, in modern times those are the bottom of the barrel janky hardware.

The Dell Latitude line used by businesses are even more boring than Precisions and really always have been - their BIOS has a somewhat unique charging profile "always plugged in" to extend battery life - I use two ancient E6330 models tuned to super low power modes as mini-servers (think anything you'd use a raspberry Pi for) that have been chugging away for probably 5+ years just running cron jobs, backups, Syncthing services and whatever I toss on them. Throw an SSD in anything and it just works - power goes out, batteries act as UPS. $100 USD each, "just work".

Thinkpads have always been a Linux favorite, at least the old models when IBM owned the brand but not too sure about the Lenovo modern ones. Last Thinkpad I owned was a 32bit one back in like maybe 2010 and it worked just fine. They tend to be more expensive used than Dells (retain their purchase price better, like a nice used auto).

[–] [email protected] 6 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

Lenovo Thinkpads are also good, especially the T and X series.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 hours ago

I have a 10th gen x1, I'm plenty happy with it

[–] [email protected] 17 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

I've heard good things about Tuxedo . No idea if they're available in Switzerland.

I'm honestly looking for something with a bit more vram than either of these companies offer. I'm 99% new to Linux, I want to play games on my laptop, but I'm dead set on not getting tied down by Win 11.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

I got a Slimbook executive 14 (spanish company), which is identical to Tuxedo's infinity book pro 14.

Loving it so far! Not helpful on the vram front though.

The only thing that might do it ( assuming you want thin and light) would be a razer blade with a 3000 series nvidia they must be fully compatible with linux, otherwise their lambda labs tensorbook collaboration wouldn't work.

[+] [email protected] -7 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

Honestly? I like the concept of the Frameworks (or, at least, the marketing schpiel) but increasingly feel like it is making MORE e-waste if anything.

Price wise? A 13th gen 13-inch specced out to approximately what Samsung is selling a 13 inch "Galaxy Book3" at is 1059 USD versus Best Buy's 800 USD.

That in itself is not horrible but let's say you were actually upgrading a previously purchased Framework and just buying a new i7-1360p cpu+mobo. That would be 1059+549 USD to upgrade versus 1600 USD to buy two laptops. So you are saving a grand total of negative 8 dollars over the course of two "laptops" assuming nothing else needed to get replaced or upgraded. AND that requires Framework to be around for 4-10 years AND to have not made significant changes that break backwards compatibility with parts.

But also? Anyone who builds their own PCs has the closet full of RAM and other parts they are totally going to use some day. Pretty sure I have some parts that predate the "core" nomenclature at Intel... And while you CAN spend more money to build up a small blade server or whatever out of your old mobos... yeah.

So instead of trade in programs or even dropping the old laptops off at the e-waste bin at Best Buy (which has like a 40% odds of actually going to an e-waste recycling facility) you just have stockpiles of e-waste because we are all fundamentally hoarders.

So my general recommendation? Look at the various electronics sellers in Switzerland and see what is on sale. Then do some googling to see how easy it is to upgrade storage or memory (ifixit.com is amazing for this) or... just spend a bit more money now to spec it out because odds are that will actually be cheaper than buying the extra parts separately. And if you have concerns over needing to repair this? Check what your credit card and country provide you warranty wise and consider buying an extended warranty from the laptop vendor.

Then install linux on that shit (not aware of a great resource to check compatibility but I find just googling works well).

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

Replacing a main board like in your example won’t be financially attractive for Framework laptops. With a new laptop you would also get a new and better screen.

Framework laptops shine in customizability and repairability.

What would you even do with the old motherboard and CPU? Could you even sell that?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago) (1 children)

I strongly encourage taking a look through ifixit's website as a surprising number of laptops these days are repairable in that regard. I mean, I was doing a quick google to get an example of a laptop they have a guide on and was shocked to see fricking Microsoft Surface screens of alll things are front and center in their webstore.

As for customizability? I can definitely see use cases for that and there have been times I questioned just how much I would be willing to pay to get a headset jack on a modern laptop. But I very much agree with Wendell's joke over at Level1Techs that those mostly exist for him to get bored during a meeting and disassemble his laptop. After the initial configuration you are unlikely to really touch them ever again (outside of niche cases).

And... years ago I learned the glory that is USB hubs. Dongles sucked. But even a 20 dollar anker hub/dongle turns one USB C hub into 4 As, an ethernet port, an audio jack, and an ethernet port. Having a dongle/hub dangling out is a bit annoying (but honestly a closer match to me plugging it in at my work desk) but... I don't think it is 250 USD annoying.

Like I said, conceptually I love the concept of Framework but every time I math out what they actually bring to the table... yeah. And it increasingly feels like there is a strong marketing campaign (can't imagine which investor contributed to that...) to misrepresent the modern day laptop market.

I will say that the best argument I have seen is that the "real" usb c ports are recessed and only accessed through the Totally Not Dongles. Which means it is a lot harder to break/bend a port that would require soldering to repair. I... don't know if I agree that is a 250 USD feature and have concerns over the implications of the design on the mobo but that is the kind of thing that would be nice for more vendors to adopt. Even if the ports themselves aren't "modular", but just to have an easily swapped board/module in the event someone drops their laptop on a thumb drive a hundred times.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

All excellent points. The trajectory of the current laptop market is the MacBook. One system on a chip with integrated RAM and an SSD. These are light, high performance, and long battery life. Repairability is difficult and upgrades harder. This type of laptop is good enough for most people and sells great.

Having a highly configurable machine is the opposite of the MacBook. There’s probably a market for the Framework laptop. It fully leans into being configurable and repairable. That gives the user a bigger sense of control. They don’t feel dependent on huge corporations. It’s not just a feeling either. Other companies don’t want their customers to repair or exchange anything on their laptops and will void the warranty if you do it. Framework is the opposite as it encourages their customers to assemble and replace parts themselves.

Customization has become huge in the PC market, especially among gamers. Framework is smart to try and fill this individualist niche. The marketing works well, just like you said. I find the programmable LED modules quite charming for example. The option to buy the laptop as a kit for me to assemble myself also sounds fun.

Empowerment is what the marketing sells to their customers. Few people really need this product, but many find it desirable.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

Agree that the macbook IS the "future" (really present), same as it was with phones, because a single monolithic SOC is much easier to manufacture and has massive power and energy benefits. That said, I do like that "new" PCAMM2 format since it does wonders for making even those kinds of systems upgradable... to the extent you would upgrade.

And a macbook with a lot less glue and signed parts is kind of what I think we SHOULD be striving for.

That said, gonna nitpick a bit

Having a highly configurable machine is the opposite of the MacBook. There’s probably a market for the Framework laptop. It fully leans into being configurable and repairable.

Again, define "configurable" and "repairable" because the former is buying dongles and the latter is not too dissimilar from other (non-apple) laptops on the market

That gives the user a bigger sense of control. They don’t feel dependent on huge corporations.

Ah, so we are paying the security blanket tax. Farmework makes me feel warm and fuzzy so I should give them money?

It’s not just a feeling either. Other companies don’t want their customers to repair or exchange anything on their laptops and will void the warranty if you do it. Framework is the opposite as it encourages their customers to assemble and replace parts themselves.

Again, actually check out the landscape. Apple are fucking assholes and always will be. But when even frigging Microsoft is making fairly repairable devices (lots of glue but https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Microsoft+Surface+Pro+4+Screen+Replacement/60348 )?

Mostly it sounds like you are reading that marketing schpiel I alluded to. "Companies aren't your friends and all want to fuck you in the ass. Except Framework. We are your friends"

Customization has become huge in the PC market, especially among gamers. Framework is smart to try and fill this individualist niche. The marketing works well, just like you said. I find the programmable LED modules quite charming for example.

Probably the biggest thing that happened to PC gaming specifically in the past decade is the Steam Deck. Which is a minimally customizable handheld computer

The option to buy the laptop as a kit for me to assemble myself also sounds fun.

And good for you. Personally, I would rather do my zany projects with random crap I got off ebay or build some gunpla. But... I am not going to tempt fate by saying I would never even consider buying a 1k USD model kit.

Empowerment is what the marketing sells to their customers. Few people really need this product, but many find it desirable.

On that I 100% agree. I just... wouldn't call that a positive.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 hours ago

Farmework makes me feel warm and fuzzy so I should give them money?

Yes, that’s what they’re going for. A personal computer is a machine people spend a lot of time with and develop an emotional attachment to. People can buy this laptop and gain status among their peers by supporting the ideas of repairability, being against planned obsolescence, for Linux, and open standards. Owning this laptop can make you feel as part of a movement for a better world.

Sure their claims might not fully hold up to scrutiny. However that doesn’t matter much if you’re emotionally invested in the ideas.

You don’t have to give them money as their product doesn’t seem to be for you. Your priorities are different.

I myself use a MacBook Air with a big ass thunderbolt dock on my desk attached to it. Apple as a corporation sucks for many reasons, but they make some good products.

Overall Framework laptops reminds me of the Fairphone.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 7 hours ago

I don't know what Switzerland's keyboard layout situation is like.

kagis

It sounds like Switzerland has a distinct keyboard layout from Germany or France.

It sounds like there's a Swiss French keyboard layout, which is apparently also what Luxembourg uses:

https://kbdlayout.info/KBDSF/

This differs from the French layout:

https://kbdlayout.info/kbdfrna

There is also a Swiss German layout:

https://kbdlayout.info/KBDSG/

Which differs from the German layout:

https://kbdlayout.info/kbdgr

If you're looking for a laptop with those layouts, you might have a hard time finding one from a small company, since it's going to need to be big enough to serve the Swiss market(s). Do you have a specific preference as to keyboard layout?

[–] [email protected] 27 points 7 hours ago (2 children)

System76?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago)

Just fyi, there plastic can be pretty bad. I have two of their laptops and they use very cheap plastic. Both have the hinges messed up. I can't take them anywhere anymore.

Love popos and their desktops, but until they fix their laptops, I wouldn't buy one of them again.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 7 hours ago

+1 for System76. Linux support by default and they ship to Switzerland

https://system76.com/shipping

[–] [email protected] 34 points 7 hours ago (2 children)

Make friends with a German. We're not that bad. Hehe...

[–] [email protected] 9 points 5 hours ago

Poles: "Don't invite them over for beer..."

[–] [email protected] 16 points 7 hours ago

Along that idea, there are mail forwarding services that will accept delivery of items in their home country, verify the contents, then forward them to you. OP, I don't know what companies do that for Switzerland, but that would be worth checking out.