this post was submitted on 12 Sep 2024
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No Stupid Questions

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I'm finding the hard way that finding another job is a grind: you invest time reading what they want to hire, you write a CV and an application.

Most of the time you don't get an answer, meaning you are that irrelevant to them. Most of these times it is YOU the one who has to ask if they decided for or against. On the limited times they write you back, it's a computed generated BS polite rejection letter.

I asked one of them how many candidates they considered and why they rejected me, but that only made them send me another computer generated letter.

I'd like to know how close I was and in what ways I can become a more interesting candidate, but nobody is going to give me a realistic answer.

It sucks having to need them more than they need you. And I should consider me lucky, because I have a job, but jesus christ, I feel for those who have to do this without stable income or a family that offers them a place to stay...

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago

Because employers are opaque and their evaluation of you isn't something that should be important to you. They're not giving you a clear response oftentimes because they want to avoid legal issues.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago (4 children)

Since the answer is unknowable, you might as well assume the best for yourself. Imagine that the job would have sucked anyway.

For example, I once interviewed for a job, was accepted, then showed up on my first day only to find out that the position had been given to someone else. Was I angry and disappointed? Of course. I made myself feel better by deciding I was better off not working for someone so untrustworthy.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

I mean what else can you do?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Something I picked up over the years. The reasons are potentially personal or emotional.

Skills, experience and education are important.

But they are also concerned with cohesion.

"Is this someone I can have a beer with and have a good time"

"Will this person enjoy the company of the staff under my charge"

"That guy drove in with a insert political message on their bumper sticker. :/"

"Gross they used random font"

"We got too many Marks at this company"

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Reminds me of one team I was on that had Karthic, Karthik, and Karthick. THEY JUST KEPT HIRING THEM.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

HR is playing pokemon trying to catch em all

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

You should send them one of those annoying feedback surveys.

1. On a scale from 1 to 10, how do you rate the overall quality of my application?

2. How well did my qualifications match the requirements for the position?

Very well matched

Somewhat matched

Not well matched

3. On a scale from 1 to 10, how would you rate the clarity of my resume/CV?

4. Was there any specific skill or experience you felt was missing from my application?

Yes (please specify)

No

5. On a scale from 1 to 10, how effectively did my cover letter convey my interest in the position?

6. Were there any areas in which my application could have been improved? (e.g., resume formatting, better alignment with job requirements, etc.)

7. On a scale from 1 to 10, how well did I communicate my strengths during any interviews or communications?

8. Would you consider my application for future opportunities within your organization?

Yes

Maybe, depending on the role

No

9. On a scale from 1 to 10, how likely are you to recommend me to another employer?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Employment is like dating, there are frequently things that happen outside of the process that impact the process and there are often reasons to avoid direct rejection even if the reasons are different.

Jobs might be posted and then the position itself is made redundant during the interviews, so they are no longer hiring. Or they liked your interview, but want to offer you something else and have to do the HR circus to make that offer happen and the whole thing falls through. Or during the interviews they decide they want to change the position into something else. Orbthey are incompetent and HR forgot to follow up on the job offer. I have seen all of these happen!

Then there is the all too common scenario of finding out the candidate is a woman or a minority and sone jerk killing the process. Can't admit that so they ghost. They might have a valid reason not to hire, but don't want to be sued for giving a reason. They might also have posted the thing to meet a requirement although they know who they were going to hire from the start. I have seen all of those as well.

Or they don't want to tell a candidate they didn't meet the position for fear of violence. This is likely being over cautious and not specific to the applicant!

Or the applicant reminded an interviewer of someone they don't like.

These often line up with dating because they are all things that have no real specific explanation that can be given as what the csndidate can even do to change. Knowing they are possible won't really impact how the interview/dating should go in the future either, because they are all external to the interview or dating process.

So the best way is to come to terms with the fact that there is likely to be someone who is a better fit, or the position wasn't really stable, or you didn't want to work or date them anyway if they didn't follow up.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Shit man, you forgot someone else was just better suited for the job.

Even though you might be 97% perfect for the job, if they find 98% you’re done and it’s not your fault. Hell you were an excellent candidate for the job and just got unlucky enough to happen to be in the same pool as them.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The final decision on who to hire never comes down to who is the 'most qualified'. There will almost always be multiple people who are qualified and the tiebreaker is interpersonal stuff like a matching sense of humor, attractiveness, and not reminding the interviewer of someone they don't like.

Someone might be told it is based on the most qualified, but working well with others is part of a job and not in the written qualifications. It is also a subjective determination and varies wildly depending on the job and who is interviewing.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago

I said nothing about qualified.

I said better suited and gave percentages of perfect for the job.

Perfect for the job included everything, social interactions, qualifications, hair style, maybe holding the door for one of the people on the panel yesterday at the doctor.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

I had applied for a job in a busy area a long time ago. I followed up a week later, nothing. I called a few days later. Nothing. I went to the office in person and *spoke to the receptionist, who was pre-screening resumes. She picked up a box the size of a case of paper, and showed me another, half full. The full one were resumes she'd not looked at yet; the half full was what she had.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago

The same way you get over not knowing just about anything else.

Let it go.

Does it serve you in any way to continue to be bothered by not knowing?

You are irrelevant to them. Just like I'm irrelevant to you. That's life.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I used to work in sales and I did a lot of cold calls. The world-weary senior sales guy would always just shake his head at me when I got frustrated. "It's a numbers game," he would say. "It's just a numbers game." In the beginning I would waste a lot of time researching each individual call, but that didn't help me make sales. The truth was a certain percentage of people that I could call would have a need for the product I was offering. Of those people who had a need, a certain percentage would choose us over a competitor, because we were the best fit.

Looking for a job is the same as sales. Your product is your labor. It can feel personal, as though the product is you, yourself. But you're not selling yourself, you're selling your work product. A certain percentage of buyers (employers) will need the labor that you can provide. A certain percentage of those will choose you over a competitor because you are the best fit. It's a numbers game. It's not personal, it's just a numbers game.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

Send out so many applications and keep busy, so that every response is a surprise. Only after a response can you set a reminder to reach out after a week. After a reminder, send a message and do not set a reminder. Keep applying to other jobs.

I just lose track of jobs I applied to in my head. If they aren't responding, they don't care and neither should you.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 2 months ago (2 children)

I’d like to know how close I was and in what ways I can become a more interesting candidate, but nobody is going to give me a realistic answer.

I can tell you from the employer side there is nothing to gain by answering this question asked by a candidate, and everything to lose which is why you the candidate almost never hear a response.

There are some legally protected reasons you cannot be turned down for a job. Its all the stuff you'd think of: race, religion, marital status, sex, age, etc. The likelihood you were turned down because of one of these illegal reasons is usually very low in the USA. I'm proud to say for the hiring efforts I've been a part of, these have never been considered criteria for disqualifying a candidate. Its always been for things like lack of knowledge/education, criminal history (example multi-DUI for a job that requires driving or conviction of embezzling when put in charge of company finances ), etc.

However, any documented reason a prospective employer gives back to a candidate becomes a liability. Will that candidate sue the company claiming that they weren't hired because they think the position required some not married, which would be a crime of the employer?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I saw a job posting for a court domestic violence advocate and they would probably reject men on principle.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

Legally they cannot. Also, domestic violence happens to men too.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago
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[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago (1 children)

All there is to accept is the knowledge that the vast majority of employers, the wealth holding members of society, do not actually care about anyone that won't earn them more money.

And then also that not all, but most of society will also tell you that you must be doing something wrong, it must be your fault.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (2 children)

"The wealth holding members of society"

Hahaha, every hiring manager I've worked for (you know, someone looking to fill a spot on our team) wasn't exactly what I'd call "a wealth holder".

They're middle-to-senior management, making anywhere from 100k to 300k, at most. Sometimes quite a bit less.

We're talking people who are a good 3 levels away from the C class. Meaning they'd be competing with everyone at their level, and above, to get to those higher seats in the pyramid.

Hiring managers are rarely farther up the food chain, unless they're hiring for those seats farther up the food chain - which isn't any of us here.

It's It like there's a team of managers who just do hiring/interviews. HR handles the initial stages, and the actual "hiring manager" is the person who's looking to add someone to their team, someone they'll be managing.

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[–] [email protected] 39 points 2 months ago (1 children)

There are a few benign-ish ways this happens, based on my experience from working on "the other side". They reflect shittily on the hiring manager, but not on you:

You got no immediate rejection because they did consider you valid for the position, just not first place. Then they got a match on the first place and stopped giving a shit about the applicant backlog.

They got too many applicants and threw half in the garbage.

Upper management put a freeze, or reduction, on hiring right as they put an ad out.

They have a person already picked for the position, but they will get in legal or corporate or PR trouble if they don't pretend to do a proper hiring process.

Their application process, human or computer, lost your CV.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago (2 children)

I have never once been told I wasn't hired, let alone told why.

I've been to probably a thousand interviews.

No one has time for that.

Imagine as a manager, you interview 100 people. Now you expect them to write a rejection letter, pass it through HR and the lawyers, for 99 people?

Imagine the time that would take, and what does the company get for that time? Nothing but risk.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago

As a hiring manager for nearly 4 years straight, dealing with way way more than 100 applicants for some positions, I know it takes minutes at most.

All hiring systems have ways to send batch emails to rejected candidates.

If you don't have a hiring system for some reason, it's still just hitting reply/ctrl-v/send to each applicant you move out of the "possible candidate" inbox.

Giving a reason "why" tends to hit people badly if they didn't specifically ask, so a stock response is not only easy to give, but the best response. Whether and how to respond in more detail to people asking for "why", is a less easy decision but good if you are able to.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Some people fell better when they find fault in others. So blame them for being too stupid to see your worth and be thankful you don’t have to work somewhere with people like that. It’s their loss. You’re waiting a company worthy of your talents finds you.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago (2 children)

So blame them for being too stupid to see your worth...You’re waiting a company worthy of your talents finds you.

Careful with this. If you legitimately feel you are entitled to be hired by a specific employer, you are almost certainly less likely to get the job. Nobody wants to deal with entitled people.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

There's a balance though. Not a specific company, but with a company who sees my needs and value, and meets or exceeds that, with appreciation.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

Yeah, during the interview, realistically you’re looking to see if it’s a good fit.

But after the fact, feel free to cheer yourself up by blaming their incompetence.

[–] [email protected] 100 points 2 months ago (3 children)

There are thousands of possible reasons and many of them won't have anything to do with you. There are fake job postings. There are many jobs where the hiring manager already has someone in mind for the job (but they have to check the required boxes and pretend to open the position to any candidate). Another candidate may have gone to the same school or been in a frat with the hiring manager. The list goes on and on.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 2 months ago (2 children)

There are fake job postings.

IIRC, there was one very recent (mid-2024) study of job ads that strongly suggested that 60-75% of them were never meant to be filled. As in, the company posted them for entirely unrelated reasons.

It’s why these are called “ghost jobs”: they don’t exist.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago (2 children)

I haven't seen the numbers. I have read that they do this for a few evil reasons.

  • It makes their business look like it's thriving.
  • They can gather intel on who's job hunting.
  • They can use job application tasks to get free work out of candidates.
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[–] [email protected] 43 points 2 months ago (1 children)

This is a good list. Another, often overlooked is:

Sometimes we just get incredibly unlucky and interview at the same time as someone wildly unusually more qualified.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (3 children)

someone wildly unusually more qualified.

Or at least someone who lied big enough on their resume to pretend that they're wildly more qualified.

In my experience the people who do the hiring can't fucking tell the difference.

I really hate the whole "you need to inflate what you did on your resume" because it's just fucking lying.

You know what's a fucking really valuable thing in this world that gets shit on: Having a fucking sense of humility and of a keen knowledge of your own limitations. Having that being viewed as a negative is fuck stupid and how we get fuck stupid people running the show.

EDIT: I accidentally the whole word

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[–] [email protected] 22 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It really doesn't hurt to keep asking. Nobody that matters is going to be offended by it. Eventually someone will tell you, but just be aware that different people may have different reasons so don't assume feedback from one employer applies to all employers.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 2 months ago (2 children)

At the end of my interviews, before saying bye,I ask what I could have done better. Almost always received constructive criticism. I highly recommend it.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

This is a seriously good idea! Employers want employees that are looking to improve themselves.

Either you fucked up and they'll tell you so you can improve next time, or they'll just be impressed at your desire to grow.

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