this post was submitted on 07 Sep 2024
469 points (92.6% liked)

Technology

59637 readers
3235 users here now

This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.


Our Rules


  1. Follow the lemmy.world rules.
  2. Only tech related content.
  3. Be excellent to each another!
  4. Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
  5. Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
  6. Politics threads may be removed.
  7. No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
  8. Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
  9. Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed

Approved Bots


founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

I just moved into a student dorm for a semester abroad, and beforehand I emailed them asking whether they had ethernet ports to plug my router into (I use it to connect all my devices, and for WiVRn VR streaming). They confirmed that I could, but now that I'm here the wifi login portal is asking me to accept these terms from the ISP, which forbid plugging in a router. There's another clause that forbids "Disruptive Devices" entirely, defined as:

“Disruptive Device” means any device that prevents or interferes with our provision of the 4Wireless to other customers (such as a wireless access point such as wireless routers) or any other device used by you in breach of the Acceptable Use Policy;

So what are my options? I don't think I can use this service without accepting the terms, but also I was told by the student dorm support that I could bring a router, which contradicts this.

EDIT: some additional context:

  • dorm provider is a company separate from my uni (they have an agreement but that's it)
  • ISP (ask4) is totally separate from dorm provider, and have installed a mesh network that requires an account. On account creation, there are many upsells including one for connecting more than one device. The "free" plan only allows me to sign in on a single device, and I can upgrade to two devices for 15 pounds.
  • ethernet requires login too
  • VR streaming requires a high performance wifi 6 network, which is why I bought this router (Archer C6 from tp-link)
(page 5) 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago

There’s various contractual reasons they may say this but ultimately they probably can’t tell. Those terms and conditions don’t count for anything and can’t be enforced because no reasonable reads them. I’d just go ahead with using your router and wait for somebody to say something (feign ignorance).

[–] [email protected] 144 points 2 months ago (14 children)

psst

Hey, kid, don't tell anyone I told you about this

*Lifts coat

iodine
https://code.kryo.se/iodine
Description: tool for tunneling IPv4 data through a DNS server
This is a piece of software that lets you tunnel IPv4 data through a DNS
server. This can be usable in different situations where internet access is
firewalled, but DNS queries are allowed.

load more comments (14 replies)
[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago

I wonder if you could just use your PC to hotspot when you need to use VR.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago (1 children)

if you have what support soid in writing then ask student legal (most universities give you free lawyer access, use it) but in general specific advice like this will in court override what the eula says. The person who said you could should of course be fired but that isn't your problem.

in the us fcc rules say these are unlicensed bands and they cannot make those rules about any radio. However the eula seems to be about wifi use but connecting their network to wifi and that difference is in their favor. If you get your own network connection (how?) You can bring your own wifi but don't connect theirs.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

Woah, that's really cool. I'll contact my uni to ask about it and I guess for now use a phone data hotspot and skip on VR.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

This is pretty typical for universities. They don’t want the airwaves clogged, doubling up NAT can lead to networking wonkiness, and they don’t want you giving university network access to unauthorized folks with an open AP.

When you say VR streaming, you just mean wireless from your PC to the headset, right? There’s a chance you could do that with an offline wireless router if the VR experiences you’re looking to play are single player.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Yep, that's what I mean with VR streaming. The PC connects thru eth to the router, and the headset is connected to the router's AP via wifi. I get the point about unauthorized access, but I set strong passwords and never share them. I think this clause is more about preventing me from connecting more than one device to the internet, which they want to charge me for if I do. Obviously having my own AP would allow me to easily circumvent that.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It just says you can't use things that allow you to connect more devices than agreed. Which means nothing without knowing how many devices were allowed to begin with.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Yeah that's the thing... the max devices is one, unless I pay a fee (per device I think). This third party that manages the internet offers a bunch of upsells in the account creation for stuff like more devices.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I would go wired.. get a switch, run an Ethernet cable from the dorm wall to the switch then out from your switch to your PC.

That said the university is probably handling DHCP and dns.. You could use a USB WiFi plug to generate a hotspot off your PC. if you wanted to run your own wifi...

But honestly the dorms WiFi with you using a VPN to a major service is probably easier everyday use wise.

Let me just say this.. my college lost WiFi connectivity for about 2 months once when I was there.
The only people who had WiFi were the folks connected to the pirate wireless. Because folks were doing the wired device --> hotspot deal with their desktops.

So might not hurt to be prepared.

Also... The dns settings for your device.. you should set those. If you use DNS from your university... It lets them control what you can and cannot see on the net.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

Yeah, that's what I did at my previous dorm (which didn't have a third party ISP trying to sell stuff to students). I brought that same router to this one because they told me it was fine, but now I'm faced with these T&C I didn't know about from a third party.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Not all that surprising. I don’t know of any network manager who’d happily allow rogue routers on their network, particularly if you still have it configured as a DHCP device and not a pass through device, which most college students do not consider and will very much disrupt campus network performance.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I'd be happy to set my device to passthrough mode, but I think the ISP prevents peer-to-peer connections (which my laptop would make to the VR headset) unless you buy one of their plans for Chromecast/smart TVs. Would that prevent it from working? And would I still be able to connect multiplw devices despite their one-device limit?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It’s hard to say without knowing all the details of how the college configures their network. Back when I was in college, I had a student job with the campus’ IT department, and students running into issues getting all their devices connected was a regular issue at the start of every year.

The main problem with most college networks is that you’ve typically got an enterprise setup that’s also having to double as home internet service for those living on campus. Depending on when the network was built it was likely only planning for students to have a laptop, maybe a desktop too, as opposed to modern times when just about every electronic device has an internet connection.

Some things just may not work like they did at home.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago (4 children)

That's fair yeah. In my case the dorms are a separate unrelated company from the uni (they just have a partnership) and the ISP is yet another third party that did the install and sells extras to each student. I think it's pretty scummy since I read my whole dorm contract and it never said this would be a condition to the "free fast wifi" access.

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

Why does the dhcp on the router affect the main network? I'd think if it has its own network the main network would only need to deal with the router, as opposed to all the devices connected to the router if it was passthrough?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Ah! I just saw you specified if it’s configured for pass through. If it is configured for pass through, then yeah it likely won’t cause issues on the network. The DHCP server is the critical bit.

From a network management perspective, though, they still won’t want these because you have to trust all these college students are going to properly configure their devices - most of them won’t know how and won’t bother figuring it out. And then you still have the issue of a bunch of unmanaged access points to your network, which is just poor security.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Yeah a simple little unmanaged switch would solve all these issues for about $20 and probably wouldn't break the ToS.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] -4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (7 children)

Because that router will be broadcasting DHCP signals and offering IPs, conflicting with the authorized DHCP servers on the network. This wiki article will probably explain it better. I’m not so good with the words a such.

Here’s hoping these downvoters aren’t in charge of any networks. Not really sure what part of “a router is a DHCP server” you geniuses don’t understand.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (10 children)

I don't know much about networking but that page seems to be about someone else setting up a dhcp server without the knowledge of the administrators or the users. In op's case the concerns about mitm attacks don't apply and the other concerns sound like problems that could arise in cases of misconfiguration or if the users aren't aware they're connected to a different network. I also couldn't see anything about it affecting the main network's performance

load more comments (10 replies)
load more comments (6 replies)
[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago

It's a security\legal risk to allow adhoc wireless networks within your environment, pretty much any organization above a certain size has the same restrictions.

You could theoretically allow anyone to access your router directly, which would let them bypass agreeing to the Acceptable Use Policy, for example, shifting liability back to the organization for that users behavior.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

You can disable your router's wireless networking (or hide its SSID if you want to use wireless networking). It won't be an issue if you use either way. Since your dorm told you that you could use a router; these terms wont matter.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago

Note that hiding its SSID won’t turn off the wireless broadcast which would be adding to the “noise” in whatever channel it’s using.

In this case you would want to turn off the wireless itself

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

I'm not advocating for breaking any rules, but many people dont know that you can hide your wifi routers SSID. even fewer people know how to track these networks.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Most commercial networks systems have the ability to detect rogue access points by analysing the radio spectrum, and hiding the SSID will not avoid detection once traffic starts flowing to it.

And they can triangulate the position of the rogue AP.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Interesting about hiding SSIDs, I never knew why that option existed. I'm here on Erasmus so I don't want to risk too much by knowingly breaking rules... them triangulating it to my room and starting a legal case or something sounds real scary.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Also, connecting an access point that doesn't broadcast its SSID has another side effect: all devices configured to connected to it will periodically broadcast a signal to search for that hidden AP instead, so it makes you even easier to track down anywhere else.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

them triangulating it to my room and starting a legal case or something sounds real scary.

It's also incredibly unlikely unless you're actually causing problems

If you really want wireless, do the Ethernet > Desktop/Laptop with hotspot and limit it's TX power WAY down to minimal levels.

You should be able to use it within your dorm room fine, but will have trouble penetrating beyond the walls and will also make detecting and triangulation quite difficult

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

So technically I should get away with connecting the router and making an AP right? I can't do a hotspot from my laptop because the performance is not high enough for streaming (this is why I bought a dedicated router).

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Ignorance is strength.

Pretend you never saw it, plug your router in, and don't worry about it.

If they do ask questions, you just made a innocent assumption.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

Get a no-annual fee credit card from a major bank or credit union. Keep it open, only use it once a month to keep it open, never close it, and it will help your credit rating long term.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 months ago (1 children)

This is honestly quite reasonable from the university. They will be putting in a lot of work to get something set up that’s strong enough for all the students, and messing that up is kind of a dick move.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

I'm with you, but how is using your own router messing that up?

On the WAN side, its just a dhcp client, just like any other laptop/xbox etc

It's not reasonable for a ISP to dictate what CPE can be used on the network, as long as the CPE does not break the network, and routers are fairly well behaved clients by design.

Just from a data hygiene and security perspective, you don't want to put your own computer directly into a bigger network, safter to be behind your own router.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Rf interference. Similar to having multiple microwaves running near your router, or those old rf based baby monitors.

Congested the 2.4 or 5gz spectrum with noise causing noise and retransmits or outright stopping the wifi from working.

If you have an old radio that does AM find a AM channel that isn’t broadcasting and bring it near your router. You can actually “hear” the noise those things are putting out.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Happily the 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz bands are unlicensed and open for public use.

Nothing our OP said indicated they wanted to run WiFi, but even if they did, they could choose a less noisy channel.

Nothing in the click through agreement talked about radios, or bands.

Any body could turn their phone into a cellular hotspot, or have a starlink hotspot, and that is nobody elses business. This is no different.

Letting the network dictate what you can run in your own home is MaBell levels of authoritarianism, but more to the point, its unenforceable ( You can always take a page out of how to hotspot book - Router runs a always on vpn and the lan side only goes out over the VPN, so DPI just seeds the router, and the TTL is as expected)

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago (4 children)

But this is a dorm. A shared environment with close proximity.

If everyone had their own Wi-Fi transmitting at normal power there would be too much interference that even channel hopping wouldn’t fix it.

Not to say that there can’t be some middle ground but the Wild West attitude isn’t kosher either.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Yeah I definitely don't want to hurt the network for other folks staying at this (very large) dorm complex/building. Can I reasonably run it at low power (since I only need it in my room) and not have it bother anyone?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Do a frequency scan, choose a 5ghz band, narrowest band you can, that isn't being used, (don't use 2.4ghz, 5ghz attenuates the fastest). If your router supports DFS, use a DFS channel

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (4 children)

Depends on whether you can adjust the Tx level but then you run into FCC level stuff that most people avoid (since boosting it is a huge issue with interference)

load more comments (4 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

ok.... so our friendly OP can use their router without turning on the radios and everyone is happy? let's advise that then

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 73 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

So most dorms don't want you using your own routers because a bunch of student routers causes A LOT of inference.

You should probably reach out not to the dorm folks but the university networking folks as they're the ones that will ultimately make the decision on whether or not to turn things off/disconnect you.

A cheap networking switch would probably be okay by them to get some more wired connections in your dorm room (routers aren't really a great way to do that).

https://www.amazon.com/Linksys-Business-LGS105-Unmanaged-Enclosure/dp/B00FV12VSW/ref=mp_s_a_1_1_sspa?crid=3PUXDK6TFLZIT&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.zm2b2eGNCSReGFJuUskv6-s3cUVDK12lfqOmf729Jjx1nw8mI07xRjx4RZCcnWDhplIUW-7IOfSn6R7TMu0yVy_k9hGXtOs0SNS7RO8sN4RI5aa_8-iwSOXz6biaUH5pE27eM8eYyBzJl9tkYxX4erfrbMwkWwhSrqIKQGOSqx1DQ1z5ZiDGCyQ_u0k8IhaN1Ra-Zpsr07cg-ZjJnDz6lA.iHHYMOhPc6OW0LmOOPkf8taxFxWnD5Sbwy_NxZwTQbU&dib_tag=se&keywords=network+switch&qid=1725717407&sprefix=network+%2Caps%2C186&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9waG9uZV9zZWFyY2hfYXRm&psc=1

As a secondary concern, using a router will cause a double NAT for all your connected devices (universities don't operate in the way ISPs do). That could cause some weird networking shenanigans, particularly for anything peer-to-peer like online games.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago (2 children)

That's good advice, however this dorm is not part of my uni (just a partner to provide housing) and the internet provider whose T&C I'm expected to accept and sign up for 1y of are a totally separate legal entity, that has a bunch of upsells for stuff like "connect more than 1 device" (which my router/AP would basically be bypassing, and I think that's what these clauses are about). About the interference, is it possible to limit it severely while still having a reliable connection just within my room? I only really want to connect:

  1. Laptop (wired)
  2. Phone
  3. VR for streaming from laptop
load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments
view more: ‹ prev next ›