this post was submitted on 06 Sep 2024
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Those claiming AI training on copyrighted works is "theft" misunderstand key aspects of copyright law and AI technology. Copyright protects specific expressions of ideas, not the ideas themselves. When AI systems ingest copyrighted works, they're extracting general patterns and concepts - the "Bob Dylan-ness" or "Hemingway-ness" - not copying specific text or images.

This process is akin to how humans learn by reading widely and absorbing styles and techniques, rather than memorizing and reproducing exact passages. The AI discards the original text, keeping only abstract representations in "vector space". When generating new content, the AI isn't recreating copyrighted works, but producing new expressions inspired by the concepts it's learned.

This is fundamentally different from copying a book or song. It's more like the long-standing artistic tradition of being influenced by others' work. The law has always recognized that ideas themselves can't be owned - only particular expressions of them.

Moreover, there's precedent for this kind of use being considered "transformative" and thus fair use. The Google Books project, which scanned millions of books to create a searchable index, was ruled legal despite protests from authors and publishers. AI training is arguably even more transformative.

While it's understandable that creators feel uneasy about this new technology, labeling it "theft" is both legally and technically inaccurate. We may need new ways to support and compensate creators in the AI age, but that doesn't make the current use of copyrighted works for AI training illegal or unethical.

For those interested, this argument is nicely laid out by Damien Riehl in FLOSS Weekly episode 744. https://twit.tv/shows/floss-weekly/episodes/744

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[–] MeaanBeaan@lemmy.world 27 points 8 months ago

This process is akin to how humans learn by reading widely and absorbing styles and techniques, rather than memorizing and reproducing exact passages.

Machine learning algorithms are not people and are not ingesting these works the same way a person does. This argument is brought up all the time and just doesn't ring true. You're defending the unethical use of copyrighted works by a giant corporation with a metaphor that doesn't have any bearing on reality; in an age where artists are already shamefully undervalued. Creating art is a human process with the express intent of it being enjoyed by other humans. Having an algorithm do it is removing the most important part of art; the humanity.

[–] woodgen@lemm.ee 6 points 8 months ago (1 children)

The issue here is that the cheese gets consumed for the sandwitch. Knowledge does not lost when it gets passed. Cheese does.

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[–] assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world 12 points 8 months ago (3 children)

There is an easy answer to this, but it's not being pursued by AI companies because it'll make them less money, albeit totally ethically.

Make all LLM models free to use, regardless of sophistication, and be collaborative with sharing the algorithms. They don't have to be open to everyone, but they can look at requests and grant them on merit without charging for it.

So how do they make money? How goes Google search make money? Advertisements. If you have a good, free product, advertisement space will follow. If it's impossible to make an AI product while also properly compensating people for training material, then don't make it a sold product. Use copyright training material freely to offer a free product with no premiums.

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[–] PixelProf@lemmy.ca 17 points 8 months ago

As someone who researched AI pre-GPT to enhance human creativity and aid in creative workflows, it's sad for me to see the direction it's been marketed, but not surprised. I'm personally excited by the tech because I personally see a really positive place for it where the data usage is arguably justified, but we either need to break through the current applications of it which seems more aimed at stock prices and wow-factoring the public instead of using them for what they're best at.

The whole exciting part of these was that it could convert unstructured inputs into natural language and structured outputs. Translation tasks (broad definition of translation), extracting key data points in unstructured data, language tasks. It's outstanding for the NLP tasks we struggled with previously, and these tasks are highly transformative or any inputs, it purely relies on structural patterns. I think few people would argue NLP tasks are infringing on the copyright owner.

But I can at least see how moving the direction toward (particularly with MoE approaches) using Q&A data to support generating Q&A outputs, media data to support generating media outputs, using code data to support generating code, this moves toward the territory of affecting sales and using someone's IP to compete against them. From a technical perspective, I understand how LLMs are not really copying, but the way they are marketed and tuned seems to be more and more intended to use people's data to compete against them, which is dubious at best.

[–] vrighter@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

except that it can, and regularly does, regurgitate copyrighted works verbatim.

[–] Cyyy@lemmy.world -1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

no it doesn't. i tried to achieve this multiple times myself and it never worked. and the cases where journalists say it did, they needed to specific ask a lot of times and in a highly specific way till they got a short snippet. Chatgpt dont spits out the exact same phrases over and over again if you ask the same, but has a variable defining how "random" and "far away from the perfect next predicted text" the output is, and by default this makes sure that the answers are never the same. Otherwise it wouldn't be chat like but more like a simple database spitting out always the same answers for the same question. But that's not how chatgpt works.

The problem isn't that it does it regularly, but that it can do it, meaning that the copyrighted works are reproducible, regardless of how much the interface tries to hide that. That means the model isn't really "learning" the same way a human would in any capacity (that should be obvious), but that it's storing data that would violate fair use, and could generate copyright-violating portions of works.

Humans read and don't retain the originals. The argument is that LLMs retain the originals, and that's where the issue lies.

[–] Camzing@lemmy.world 1 points 8 months ago

No but you would definitely design a car based on other designs made before.

[–] Otkaz@lemmy.world 13 points 8 months ago (3 children)

Maybe if OpenAI didn't suddenly decide not to be open when they got in bed with Micro$oft, they could just make it a community effort. I own a copyrighted work that the AI hasn't been feed yet, so I loan it as training and you do the same. They could have made it an open initiative. Missed opportunity from a greedy company. Push the boundaries of technology, and we can all reap the rewards.

[–] Cyyy@lemmy.world 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

can you image what the internet would do then? It would end similar to microsofts twitter AI who did learn to be racist by the internet and to swear and stuff.

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[–] HexesofVexes@lemmy.world 8 points 8 months ago (4 children)

I rather think the point is being missed here. Copyright is already causing huge issues, such as the troubles faced by the internet archive, and the fact academics get nothing from their work.

Surely the argument here is that copyright law needs to change, as it acts as a barrier to education and human expression. Not, however, just for AI, but as a whole.

Copyright law needs to move with the times, as all laws do.

[–] assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world 2 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Copyright is a lesser evil compared to taking human labor and creativity for free to sell a product.

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