this post was submitted on 22 Aug 2024
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This is a bit of a rant, but please try to stick with me through the whole thing

So recently OSRS (Old School Runescape) has joined a list of games that have replaced "Male or Female" with "Body Type A or Body Type B" with you selecting your pronouns secondary.

And it made me furious, but I had to sit down and ask why such a small meaningless thing that I only see during the character creator pisses me off. After all, isn't this giving a seat at the table for Gender Non-Conforming/Non-Binary individuals?

So I tried thinking about this issue from the perspective of a Non-Binary individual. See I myself am female (Transgender MTF for what it's worth), so the only thing I'm ever going to pick is the female option unless I'm doing a challenge run where I try to roleplay Guybrush Threepywood (Mighty Pirate!) while playing Fallout 3...

That's when I realized why I absolutely hate Body Type A/Body Type B

This is not a solution to a problem, this is highlighting the issue.

As a woman, I look at "Body Type A or Body Type B" and think "Well, I'm a woman, not a Body Type B, and isn't it kinda misogynistic that the secondary option is the female one? Like A+ for Men, B- for Women?"

As someone is very much not cisgender, I look at it and go "Well, isn't every FTM going to pick Body Type A with male pronouns while MTFs like myself go with Body Type B with female pronouns? Who outside of a Far Right Troll trying and failing to be funny is gonna pick the buff bearded dude and select the she/her pronouns?"

It was only when I went "Let's pretend I don't exist in a male/female binary and see how I feel about it." that I realized why I absolutely DESPISE Body Type A/Body Type B

Because when I look at it from that angle, I realize that if I am a non-binary individual, my options are to look like an overly buff dude but occasionally NPCs will refer to me as a They/Them, or like an overly curvy chick who again sometimes gets called They/Them....

That's when I realized why Body Type A/Body Type B doesn't do it for me.

Games that do this aren't being progressive or inclusive, they're changing the color of the cup that my drink comes in and pretending it's an entirely new beverage.

I realized that if the choices in Body Type were something like

A - Buff Dude

B - Slim Dude

C - Fat Dude

D - Skinny Androgynous Individual who doesn't need a bra/binder

E - Fat Androgynous Individual who doesn't need a bra/binder

F - Skinny Androgynous Individual who requires bra/binder

G - Fat Androgynous Individual who requires bra/binder

I - Curvy Chick

J - Buff Chick

K - Fat Chick

L - Slim Chick

Maybe have also an option for a big buff masculine dude who has big tits, because that's just how he rolls, I dunno just thinking aloud here....

My point is that gaming could abandon "A/B" in favor of something more like an actual spectrum of Height, Weight, and Gender Presentation instead of just awkwardly renaming the binary? I wouldn't get so up in arms about gender replacing body type.

I don't know what more I have to say on this. I guess it's just a revelation I had about something in gaming that bothers me..

So, wider gaming community. What do you think? Am I onto something or is this all crazy talk?

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 7 months ago (10 children)

To me, the obvious answer is to do away with the concept of "gender" altogether. It's a societal construct that doesn't really need to exist in video game character creation, anyway.

Everybody is born one of two biological sexes: male or female. There. Those are your choices. Call it "apparent sex" and include a pronoun option to allow for players who want to roleplay gender nonconforming characters.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I agree with what others said that more customization is generally good, but not all games really need that level of customization. For something like animal crossing, I think the body type thing is fine, since the designs are more neutral unlike what you're describing. I think what could help is a third option that's a more neutral body type. Or maybe if it's not relevant, just don't have a body type option.

I also don't know much about runescape, but I assume this was an update that just changed the names from genders to body types, so adding other options might have increased the scope of the update. I think at least uncoupling that from gender is at least an improvement over before. Plus, I kinda disagree that people would only pick the corresponding pronouns. Plenty of people have a gender expression that doesn't necessarily match their gender identity.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Oh definitely, heck, in Animal Crossing they might as well just ask for your pronouns and nothing else... In fact doesn't New Horizons basically do that? But I'm referring more to the more common scenario of "Beefy Guy" and "Curvy Cutie", which we see in World of Warcraft, you can pick whatever pronouns you want but it's going to go on either on testosterone fueled bearded Dwarf you've ever seen or the hourglass with pointy ears we call a Night Elf...

When you only get two body type options and neither have any level of androgyny, what does pretending they aren't gendered when they clearly are accomplish? That's the part I have an issue with, it's dishonesty being masqueraded as progress. Either have androgynous character options or don't pretend "Body Type A/B" is a solution to a problem.

I feel The Sims 4 gets this right by letting you pick between male, female, or a custom gender (where you can decide if the sims pees standing up or sitting down, whatever pronouns you want them to have, whether the sim gets others pregnant, becomes pregnant, both, or neither), and ALL THREE of them have a healthy amount of customization options to go for whatever look you want.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 months ago

Yeah I agree with you there. If you're gonna just give two or three body type options and no other customization, there should be an androgenous option or at least they should all be generally androgenous. I think the issue with runescape probably stems from how the game was before.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I agree that your setup would be perfect, but the reality of the situation is that it depends on the engine and how much time the programmers/artists/whatever have.

Like if the engine doesn't support dynamically resizing equipment, then you have to make every single piece of equipment over again for every body shape. That is a potentially massive amount of work, even if there is tooling that will automate most of it and only require retouching. There's only so much time in the day, and every hour that people are working on this is an hour that they aren't working on building more levels or adding more systems, etc.

Is it better to have "Body Shape A/B" or "Male Body / Female Body"? Because those are the options that are the same amount of work.

It would be better to have a ton of body options. It would be even better to have sliders and have everything adjust itself to fit whatever shape you make. But both of those options take time to work on, and time is money.

I don't think it's fair to call (for a specific choice) BG3's developers lazy because they only have 2 (or 4 for some races) body sizes. They are just optimizing their time investment.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Yeah, but In Baldur's Gate 3 I can make a feminine looking character with tits and a big throbbing horse dick, a masculine character with a vagina, or an adrogynous character with whatever the hell I want.. So having the pronouns separate from the build actually makes sense. The concept of binary gender identity is subverted enough for pronoun selection to serve a practical purpose.

In something like Old School Runescape or the Demon's Souls remaster? Not so much.

If I'm ONLY going to have two body type choices, Buff Dude or Curvy Chick, why this unnatural "Body Type A/Body Type B" language instead of saying "Masculine/Feminine" ? It just makes me feel like I'm in some Orwellian New Speak environment that just simply doesn't exist in day to day life. And again, Non-Binary individuals aren't getting any favors here because they're STILL forced into a dichotomy of Masculine or Feminine, it's just now that "Those buzzword unfriendly M and F-Words" aren't present. The best a non-binary individual can really get in that situation is do a heads/tails coin toss and pick They/Them pronouns.

No one's needs are really being met here, we're just forcing awkward corporate jargon to pretend the game is more inclusive than it really is.

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 7 months ago

Honestly only having two body types is the lazy part, no matter what the two types are. The best solution would be a variety of heights, weights, shoulder, waist, and hip sliders with boobs and butts and whatever else as add ons to the body shape. That should cover everyone as long as there is plenty of range on each option.

Unless everyone is in armor, in which case two or three gender neuteal body types are fine because boobs and butts won't be noticeable through armor anyway. Height is pretty much all that is different if everyone in the armor is in decent shape and the armor is made to fit a range of people.

[–] [email protected] 54 points 7 months ago (9 children)

While I agree having more options is always a better thing, I really can't see body type A and B with pronouns choosing anything other than more inclusive, a good thing, and not something that deserves getting up in arms about.

I don't really see how it could be seen as not more inclusive. Sure it's not more inclusive than having full blown sliders that let you change every bit of a character's body, but it's adding more pronouns and not forcing those pronouns on a certain body type. If we look at number of options, it is more than the previous "male and female" options. Thus including a broader set of people

[–] [email protected] 12 points 7 months ago (10 children)

My issue is how half-assed the measure is. What's the point of letting me pick between "He/Him" and "She/Her", if it's going on a character that looks like a stereotypical brodude or a model in a fashion magazine? Is it really doing anyone any favors?

Would anyone in good faith, with only two options "Stereotypical Brodude or Fashion Magazine Cover Girl", is going to play the former with she/her or the latter with he/him? If there was more variety or perhaps something like Cyberpunk 2077 or Baldur's Gate 3 where you can have a masculine build with feminine features or vice versa, I could see the point.. but for most games that are only going to give you the most common denominator as your only two options?

It just feels like throwing a coat of paint to make it look like the studio cares about making their product more accessible, when really it's just trying to check a box to appease HR.

It's a step in the right direction, but it's so small that it's insulting to everyone involved.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Would anyone in good faith, with only two options "Stereotypical Brodude or Fashion Magazine Cover Girl", is going to play the former with she/her or the latter with he/him?

I think so. Why not? There are as many valid genders and identities as there are people in the world. Who am I to judge what people want to be referred as? Also even if there wasn't people like that, I can almost guarantee there are people who would want to put a "they/them" to those body types, which seems to be the main point of this body type trend.

I don't see it as a bad faith thing to be like "hey, we should include the ability for NB people to have their preferred pronouns"

Again, I agree that having more options would be better, but why does perfect have to be the enemy of good?

Edit: I also want to say that NB does not equal androgenous. Sure many NB people may desire or have an androgenous look. But I also know people who like to look and be feminine but are still NB, and the other way around

[–] [email protected] 6 points 7 months ago (2 children)

The reason why perfect is an enemy of good in this particular circumstance because the message it gives off now is "We care about buzzwords", with just a little more effort, it could be "We care about inclusion."

As it stands now, I'm just left rolling my eyes because game studios see me as not a woman, but as "Body Type B", but if we had some more androgynous options alongside itl, it'd come across more.. "Oh I CAN have a feminine build if I WANT to."

It's that little bit that goes a long way.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I guess I just really don't see it that way. Man and woman and "she/her" and "he/him" are so much more than the way a body looks. Like someone could be the most traditionally culturally masculine looking person and go by she/her. That's valid, that's fine.

I don't see it as the studio not seeing you as a woman. I am somewhat confused by that statement. Like you get the ability to choose she /her with a couple body options. The she / her is the woman here no? They recognize it as a thing. You can look however. I mean fuck I certainly don't have a body type B, but I'm still a woman

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Thing is I definitely don't look like the "Type B", but my other option is "Type A", which is something so blatantly masculine in every way that it would be insulting for me to represented as such, and I guarantee any other trans woman would feel that same in that scenario.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

@HawlSera @chloyster I mean, I absolutely know people who use she/her but present very masc, and vise-versa. They may be relatively uncommon, but so are trans people in general and we're still worth representing. Not to mention non-binary people who have relatively binary gender presentation. Your experience is absolutely not universal.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 7 months ago

As another trans woman, I just have to say you do not speak for all trans women. I have met sooooo many trans women whose idea of transness are much different to my own. It's so broad and expansive there are no absolutes here

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[–] [email protected] 70 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (3 children)

S L I D E R S

Fucking Saints Row 2 had this shit figured out

PS: I like when the game just shows you a bunch of presets and says "pick one". It's more elegant than "which of the two body types do you want"

[–] [email protected] 24 points 7 months ago

^ This, I much prefer this... I mean something about "Body Type A/Body Type B" just feels too "corpo" for my tastes... but Saints Row sliders not so much.

Heck Pokemon even figured this out by just showing you pictures of characters and saying "Hey, which one of these do you wanna play as", didn't even have to use words.

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