this post was submitted on 21 Aug 2024
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Ukraine attacked Moscow on Wednesday with at least 11 drones that were shot down by air defences in what Russian officials called one of the biggest drone strikes on the capital since the war in Ukraine began in February 2022.

The war, largely a grinding artillery and drone battle across the fields, forests and villages of eastern Ukraine, escalated on Aug. 6 when Ukraine sent thousands of soldiers over the border into Russia's western Kursk region.

For months, Ukraine has also fought an increasingly damaging drone war against the refineries and airfields of Russia, the world's second largest oil exporter, though major drone attacks on the Moscow region - with a population of over 21 million - have been rarer.

Russia's defence ministry said its air defences destroyed a total of 45 drones over Russian territory, including 11 over the Moscow region, 23 over the border region of Bryansk, six over the Belgorod region, three over the Kaluga region and two over the Kursk region.

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 9 months ago (18 children)

Why aren't we just sending them millions of small drones instead of all the bigger stuff?

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[–] [email protected] -2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Some of the drones were shot down over the city of https://sffa.community/post/1949946

Even OP says this is too biased, but fortunately we have a super bot right @[email protected] ?

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[–] [email protected] 33 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Do it again. And again. And again.

Wear down the population

[–] [email protected] 100 points 9 months ago (10 children)

Strategic bombing of a civilian population has only ever hardened that population’s resolve.

Bombing Moscow or any other city would only increase support for the regime.

Now, industrial targets that Putin’s cronies make their rubles running? Much more likely to have an impact.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 9 months ago

Not if you’re Russia, the UK, the US, etc. You’re used to getting away with what you want and nobody can do anything about it. When something like that happens, the populace goes into a state of crisis.

[–] [email protected] 48 points 9 months ago

That is what they are doing. I should have structured my post better. Keep striking military targets and the oil and gas infrastructure. Keep the pressure on the regime and bleed the oligarchs pocketbooks dry.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 9 months ago (2 children)

There are valid military targets in Moscow. However the more important part is to instill fear in the populace. People who are afraid of being killed are far more useful a tool to Ukraine than actually killing them. It's that feeling of impending doom, that this time they might come for you. Them those scared people are a problem for the Russian government, but without pissing them off enough to override their fear.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago

This strategy might have only worked with the destruction of cities by nuclear weapons in Japan.

The resolve of the German population was not broken by the bombing of civilians. If they wouldn't have hit the military production capabilities and invaded with ground forces the war would have dragged on much longer (and Germany lacked vital resources in their territory, unlike Russia).

So even if your suggestion to bomb the civilians wouldn't be quite reprehensible by itself, it's extremely unlikely that this would end the war on it's own.

Just look at the numbers of soldiers Russia has lost, this didn't seem to faze the support of the general population so far either (families and friends if those who died it who were severely injured).

[–] [email protected] -1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

So terrorism. You want to literally terrorize civilians for military gain. What is wrong with you?

[–] [email protected] -2 points 9 months ago (11 children)

Have you seen what they did to Ukraine?

It's counter-terrorism.

You can't let terrorists get away with their terror, the fear must be repaid 10-fold or it will never end.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 9 months ago (4 children)

Honest question, how does this mesh with sieges of cities in earlier periods of history? When cities would surrender because of sieges. What are the differences?

[–] [email protected] 13 points 9 months ago (3 children)

Also, to add to the other poster's point, in a medieval siege, the defenders have every reason to believe the attackers will happily let every man, woman, and child behind the walls die gruesome deaths to starvatiom or disease. That's why, when it came down to the wire, cities would submit.

In modern times, cultivating a believable military posture of, "Surrender, or we will personally execute every last motherfucking one of you" is politically dicey. Look at the news stories coming out of Gaza about supplies running low thanks to Israeli interference. Right, wrong , or indifferent, the international community (as well as your domestic community, if those that disagree with these sorts of tactics are allowed to make their voices heard) tends to look down their noses at targeting noncombatants populations. So, due to these complications (which were largely absent or less impactful from warfare in the time of Genghis Khan) wholesale slaughter of civilian life isn't really openly used. In fact, guidelines like "proportionality" are invented which dictate the level of response you can give certain provocations and what not.

So, if you're a modern day commander being tasked with taking an urban center, the closest way to approximate a medieval siege would be to absolutely carpet bomb everything. Make it known that you will happily let every single person in Moscow die, if not send them to the afterlife yourself. While you're bombing the suburbs, you'll also need to encirce the whole city to prevent supplies from being delivered, since you can't guarantee every bomb will hit it's target and need starvation to provide additional assurance to the population that, if they maintain their current course, they are doomed.

Unfortunately, the world isn't going to allow that, and you know it, so you commit to the level of bombing deemed acceptable by the world at large. At best, you wind up in a situation like London during the Blitz. Your bombing runs are effective, in that they disrupt the daily life of citizenry, and cause some infrastructure damage and loss of life. However, you're never going to be allowed to scale up to the point where your victims feel they have no way out but to submit. There's enough plausible deniability that, even when a bomb hits close to home (literally or figuratively), the victim is more pissed at the bomber than their government.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago (4 children)

Interesting! Just a question, are you saying that the Germans were holding back during their bombing runs of London? I'm no history expert, but that doesn't sound right to me, and if it is, I'd love to know more about it.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I don't they were holding back. Hitler isn't particularly known for his restraint. It was just more rudimentary technology. There were only around 2000ish planes on either side, and they weren't committing everything every day. The planes were smaller, the bombs weren't as destructive, and targeting was pretty basic. They absolutely did tons of damage, but it took months.

Carrying out a similar engagement today would level a city in hours, maybe days.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago

Right, I was just misunderstanding your statement, then. Thanks for the interesting read!

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Ye olde sieges cut off supply lines and forced the defenders to subsist on rations. Once those started running low, they started starving. Eventually the options were starve to death or surrender. These sieges frequently lasted months and sometimes years. Given travel times, it could also be weeks before anyone realized something was wrong and mobilized a force to break the siege.

Ukraine can only do infrequent drone raids. In order to properly siege Moscow, they would need to lock down all ways in and out of the city, and keep it that way for months, possibly longer given modern food preservation techniques and the viability of backyard farming. Additionally, sieging a city no longer prevents the people from communicating with the outside world, meaning other Russian forces would respond in days.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 9 months ago

I suppose there's also little reason to siege cities nowadays, given that city walls for defense are no longer a thing.

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[–] [email protected] 31 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Are they bombing civilian targets in Moscow or strategic targets?

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

That's only when the bad guys do it. It's different when we do it.

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 9 months ago

Слава Україні!

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