What happened to State's Rights?
this post was submitted on 08 Feb 2024
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We all knew it wasn’t going to happen, right? Like no one actually believed he would be kept off the ballots, did they?
More of an outside chance. The Supreme Court might decide that saving the Republican party is more important than helping Trump.
Trump being kicked off the ballot wouldn't save the Republican Party at all. It's likely Trump would turn his ire toward them more than ever, and many of his voters would stay home
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It's because trump hasn't been found guilty of insurrection yet.
That's likely to take longer than next election, which is one of many reasons our justice system moves too slow.
No. It isn't. If you read the summaries I saw from today, it says the Justices didn't even discuss whether he participated in insurrection. (Ed. nor anything about conviction. What have you been reading??)
Also if you look at the original Colorado ruling, it lays out in pretty great detail, based on the evidence presented, that Trump did, in fact, participate in insurrection.
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14A arguments have been used to DQ people many times in the past without court proceedings.
The Supreme Court is obviously going to put Trump on the ballot, but we shouldn't pretend they have any justified reason to do so.
Are you referring to 14A arguments outside of sec. 3? I ask because section 3 has only been applied to one non-confederate
Section 3 has been invoked since the Confederate issue was settled, but just once.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2021/01/11/14th-amendment-trump-insurrection-impeachment/
Let's just ignore loopholes because Republicans would never use the same one twice!
/s
If we fight fascism with inaction, I do t like our chances.
We need to do shit not just say "it would happen anyways, nothing we can do"
We need to do shit
And what would that be. Let me guess: peacefully protest? Yeah that's going to surely change their minds.
I'm afraid this issue (contingent on the expected result of failure of the "justice" system) can no longer be solved peacefully. This is the moment all those 2nd amendment goons were keeping their ~~dicks hard~~ guns ready for, and they're all in arms to support the domestic enemy. There's nothing left to do. Get a gun.
A guilt verdict for insurrection was not required for any of the other people made ineligible by the 14th Amendment, why does a different standard apply only to Donald Trump?
Couy Griffin, for a recent example, was removed from office in 2022 based on the 14th Amendment; the only thing he was found guilt of was trespassing. And after the 14th Amendment was ratified thousand of Confederates who had been convicted of nothing filed amnesty requests with Congress to remove their disqualification under the 14th Amendment because it was well understood that a conviction wasn't required.
Go tell the SC.
I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm saying what the SC is using for an excuse.
Or this article:
Where the judge explains why she ruled different for a president.
She was then overruled in treating him differently.
Trump's main argument, though he doesn't admit to insurrection, is that he isn't technically an officer under the united states and so technically the 14th amendment doesn't apply.
He could be arguing, strongly, that he didn't commit insurrection but he's not. His lawyer basically said, "yeah, we don't admit that but it doesn't matter because of this technicality".
Its a super weak argument. Trumps lawyer gave the scotus very little reason to find in his favor other than, "if you find against us there will be a tit for tat among the states leading to chaos" which, yeah, but that's not a legal argument.
That's like sovereign citizen level bullshit. Crazy they're going with that.
Crazy but not surprising. Im sure Maga has many sovereign citizens in its roster.
Yeah, but he hasn't been found guilty yet ...
He obviously should, and probably will.
But it hasn't happened yet, and likely won't before the election.
Which is why I'm complaining about how long our justice system takes for the rich, they can stall
He was found by a court in Colorado to have engaged insurrection. A criminal conviction is not necessary. Just like there's no conviction necessary for any other disqualification like age, citizenship, residency, and all the others.
This?
That's a lawsuit, not a criminal trial.
Like, OJ wasn't found guilty of murder in criminal court, but he lost the civil trial.
I'm pretty sure that's the distinction
Show me where in the 14th Amendment a criminal trial is specified?
What purpose would a criminal trial serve?
The 14th amendment requires no criminal conviction. Your whole argument about needing to be convicted of insurrection is just flat out wrong based on the actual text of the amendment. You can argue it's poorly written, and I might agree with you, but it says what it says.
The remedy for being disqualified by the 14th is to petition congress to remove the disqualification. Such remedies were petitioned for and approved in the 1860s and 70s without much fuss.
See, while what you're saying is true, it's not the whole truth.
The remedies in the late 1800's were required because Congress had already taken action to define the events of the Civil War as an insurrection. It was an act of Congress that they were having to appeal. There has been no similar act of Congress that Trump would need to appeal.
The core question, and one that the justices seem to be asking pointedly, is who determines whether someone's actions constitute "insurrection"? In the past, it was Congress. There's certainly an argument to be made that if someone was convicted of criminal insurrection, that would suffice. But absent those two, how do you make that determination, and who makes that determination.
I think the court feels that, while the 14th doesn't explicitly state how to make that determination, absent a criminal conviction or act of Congress, that there is no grounds to disqualify a candidate due to 14th amendment rules.
And I think I kind of agree. Or, at least, I think there should be some sort of objective metric that gets defined before making a determination. Especially since the last major use of the 14th was literally the Civil War, which, as bad as Jan6 was, is a pretty huge amount worse. And if we're plotting them along a continuum, to the left of Jan6 you have things like mass protests that attempt to shut down government functions to push certain agendas, which I think we all agree is well within the bounds of freedom of speech.
I'm not defending Trump, let me be clear. I am simply advocating that we note that there is nuance to this issue. Life is not painted in black and white. Just because something was bad, and even that it should be disqualifying, doesn't mean that it's easy to justify that fact in the current legal framework we exist in.
Indeed. As with any controversial topic there are a lot more facts and nuances beyond knee-jerk reactions to headlines.
And so, I applaud you for taking the time to outline the issue with the depth it deserves.
I mean, Trump can go to hell, don't get me wrong.
But I am mildly frustrated that something this important is treated so superficially by so many in this and other threads. What can you do though?
The state of Colorado has found, as a matter of fact, that Trump engaged in insurrection.
To argue that it takes an act of congress to declare someone an insurrectionist when the remedy for such a declaration is also congress doesn't make any sense. You can't have the same body deciding such things because you'd just have a chicken and egg situation (which is exactly what trump wants).
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I mean, think of the chaotic implications of letting states determine who is eligible to be on their ballots by following a federal standard laid out in the constitution.
Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!
The problem is that Republicans will obviously abuse this. They've wrecked our justice system across all levels.
Republicans straight up dont give a flying fuck about rules, laws or precedent. They will always do whatever the fuck they want to do. Damn the consequences.
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This is always such a spurious argument; Republicans will do what they're going to do regardless of precedent. There was no precedent for their attempt to throw out the results of last election but they did it anyway.
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And if leading a riot into the capital to overturn an election counts as insurrection, then anyone could be taken off the ballet!
I mean, you could exclude like half the Republican caucus. Imagine what a bunch of fresh blood would do to the place!
Fixed it…
“I mean, you could exsanguinate like half the Republican caucus. Imagine what a bunch of fresh blood would do to the place!”
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