"The Woods Would Be Very Silent If No Birds Sang Except Those Who Sang Best"
this post was submitted on 11 Jun 2024
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i think blue should be either extended or completely replace green, "excellence" is not given just because you're smart
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I was told that when I went to college I would realize that I'm not that smart. Instead I met a bunch of people who got depressed because they weren't as good as I was. I tried to explain to them that I was a freak who was masking so hard that I collapsed from exhaustion whenever I got home, and they shouldn't try to compare themselves to me because the part of my brain that does logic ate the part that reads faces and understands how talking works. I wanted them to understand that there was a lot that came naturally to them that I would never be able to do easily.
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I'm in this picture and I don't like it.
Me too, the red band on the left hand side
School said I was gifted but I think I was just a big fish in a small pond.
"Gifted" in school basically just means "above average" and as we all know...
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
--George Carlin
"IQ" and other intelligence tests are incredibly flawed. The biggest issue is that intelligence is very hard to define. Not to mention the IQ test comes from racist origins and was used for immigration testing for a long time.
can confirm did well on an iq test whilst absolutely sloshed in school
Why then does IQ predict success?
I imagine it's because the attributes that IQ measure could be the same as we use to measure success.
Effectively if your test is based on the skills needed for STEM, and the STEM fields have jobs with high pay and respect, then you're likely to be considered "successful". But the same person could be awful at communication, politics, the arts, and just be ignorant at large to how the world works. They may even be hyper specialized to their field but lack the flexibility in their intelligence to understand other STEM fields (I hear physicists are guilty of this).
Another, simpler answer, could just be that already wealthy people have better access to stable education, so they were already successful in many ways.
Have you seen IQ tests? They are not exactly "based on the skills needed for STEM".
Just to continue to throw wrenches into the preconceptions, let's not forget that a huge part of what we consider success in the modern world can be attributed to emotional intelligence as much as spatial awareness and logic.
A lot of CEO's and people who climb high in the world are excellent at understanding how others feel and using emotion to communicate, share and inspire people to follow. Sometimes it's the only thing leadership figureheads even know how to do. It's also very, very hard to manage teams effectively if you don't have a good understanding of how people feel at different times, how best to address those feelings and an idea how to manage the emotional atmosphere in a workplace. Yes, having good logic and reasoning is massively important, but rarely alone.
can be attributed to emotional intelligence as much as spatial awareness and logic.
Even though popular culture likes to equate intelligence with lack of social intelligence and even outright autism, it's more likely that an intelligent person is intelligent in all of these things.
Yep, I'm starting to see how useful studying psychology would have been.
I'm 15 years into a tech career and it's becoming increasingly obvious that the hard problems are not usually tech problems...
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We know this, the issue is until a more comprehensive test comes around, the IQ test is the best we have, also measuring general pattern recognition can be pretty useful as a "quick and sweet" measure since pattern recognition is the base for all other forms of intelligence
Well the origins were laudable, it's just that it was shortly thereafter extended for racist means. Binet and Simon wanted to see if they could devise a test to measure intelligence in children, and they ultimately came up with a way to measure a child's mental age.
At the time, problem children who did poorly in school were assumed to be sick and sent to an asylum. They proposed that some children were just slow, but they could still be successful if they got more help. Their test was meant to identify the slow children so that they could allocate the proper resources to them.
Later, their ideas were extended beyond the education system to try to prove racial hierarchies, and that's where much of the controversy comes from. The other part is that the tests were meant to identify children that would struggle in school. They weren't meant to identify geniuses or to understand people's intelligence level outside of the classroom.
I think labeling kids as slow can be problematic depending on the context. We are all good at different things. If a kid needs help in math get them help but don't treat them as inferior. If a kid has no self worth then they have no motivation to get better. Separating them from there pears is incredibly humiliating and can cause trauma.
Anyway this is a very complex subject that goes far beyond the IQ test.
Let's not pretend verifiably 'slow' people with intellectual disabilities don't exist please. Pretending these people don't exist or acting like the severity of their symptoms aren't absolutely something that they need help with doesn't make these issues go away. It makes them worse. It hasn't worked for any other issue where people didn't want to call a spade a spade.
It hasn't worked for any neurodivergent people for the last 40 years where parents and society wanted to pretend everyone was the same despite people drowning and needing help for fear of being 'different' or oh no their brain and body work fine no medications or doctors for us thanks!
Being different is okay. Everyone needs help in different ways. It's shit like the above that causes these kids to think they are.
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This is a good and nuanced take, thank you for taking the time to write it down. Piggybacking on this, if anyone wants to dive more deeply into the subject of psychological measurement, there's an excellent book by Derek Briggs about this: Historical and Conceptual Foundations of Measurement in the Human Sciences: Credos & Controversies.