this post was submitted on 01 Sep 2023
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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Western Marxism Loves Purity and Martyrdom, But Not Real Revolution (2020) by Jones Manoel

There is a great tendency in the eastern left, according to Perry Anderson, to separate western and eastern Marxism. Western Marxism is basically a kind of Marxism which has, as a key characteristic, never exercised political power. It is a Marxism that has, more and more frequently, concerned itself with philosophical and aesthetic issues. It has pulled back, for example, from criticism of political economy and the problem of the conquest of political power. More and more it has taken a historic distance from the concrete experiences of socialist transition in the Soviet Union, China, Viet Nam, Cuba and so forth. This western Marxism considers itself to be superior to eastern Marxism because it hasn’t tarnished Marxism by transforming it into an ideology of the State like, for example, Soviet Marxism, and it has never been authoritarian, totalitarian or violent. This Marxism preserves the purity of theory to the detriment of the fact that it has never produced a revolution anywhere on the face of the Earth – this is a very important point.

Every movement that appears to stray a bit from these “pure” models that were created a priori is explained through the concept of betrayal, or is explained as “state capitalism.” Therefore, nothing is socialism and everything is state capitalism. Nothing is socialist transition and everything is state capitalism. The revolution is only a revolution during that glorious moment of taking political power. Starting from the moment of building a new social order, its over. Revolution is always a political process which has two moments: a moment of destruction of the old capitalist order and taking power, and a moment of building a new order. The contradictions, the problems, the failures, the mistakes, sometimes even the crimes, mainly happen during this moment of building the new order. So when the time comes to evaluate the building of a new social order -- which is where, apparently, the practice always appears to stray from the purity of theory -- the specific appears corrupted in the face of the universal. It is at this point that the idea of betrayal is evoked, that the idea of counter revolution is evoked, and that the idea of State Capitalism appears in order to preserve the purity of theory.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

China and DPRK are not socialist. They are fascist states in a costume of socialism

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

You know "Fascist" actually means something and isn't just a synonym of "place I don't like"

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Yes, I would like one, uhhh, high speed rail network with a side of, uhhh, universal healthcare, hold the genocide and secret police, please.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

What genocide?

Do you know the actual truth of the Holodomor or Xinjiang? Are you willing to know?

Comrades who are jumping straight to retorting are unwittingly making it seem like, "well yes, there was a genocide, but it was worth it." Please do not allow any gap in our response that allows this interpretation. There has never been a genocide committed by a socialist country and we should make it clear we will not cede that atrociously false accusation.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Your contention is that Stalin committed no genocide? What do you call it, sparkling ethnic cleansing?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (22 children)

Do you call the Dust Bowl and Great Depression a genocide? Words have meaning.

You love to present overdramatic accusations when a famine occurs in a socialist country, and there’s usually only one big one.

Edit: If you’re talking about something else, please elaborate as to your specific allegation. ~~I asked you for a source earlier and you didn’t respond.~~

Edit 2: I stand corrected; I conflated you with a different user, but I’d still appreciate your source. Unfortunately, due to the lateness of this edit, the instance admins have already banned you, so I probably won’t find this out.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

It's crazy - we all actually tend to agree on most things. We all sort of agree that the US government has committed atrocities, that wealth redistribution is what we should be striving for, that billionaires suck, that universal healthcare is good, all that good shit.

But they are stuck on the idea that their favorite governments can do no wrong.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

“I agree that the U.S. is evil and has been the objective bad guy in every war it’s ever been in (and the US has almost never not been at war) but I believe the U.S. wholeheartedly in matters of foreign policy”

Of course they can do wrong. We acknowledge legitimate criticisms, but we’re going to refute slander against socialist governments.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Our secret police like the FBI? And our genocide like in North Korea?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yes. The point of view here is anti-authoritarian.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There has been no genocide committed by a socialist country, no need to point out any of the dozens committed by the U.S. alone.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There is no war in Ba Sing Se

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

There has been no genocide committed by a socialist country

You only had to provide one example to disprove a claim of this sort, and you couldn’t do it?

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Their secret police.
Our civilian police.
Their "authoritarianism".
Our law and order.
Their concentration camps.
Our massive prison industrial complex enforcing slave labour on minorities.

Also there's no proof of a genocide going on in China. The main proponent of the accusations is the Falun Gong and Adrian Zenz - a man on a divine mission to crush communism, who has made frequent and egregious "errors" in his translation and methodology.
On the other hand countries in the EU are funding refugee "camps" like that on Moria, with conditions so horrible people are fleeing daily, and the EU is funding border patrols in Turkey that make use of excessive force. These actions would by any fair definition be genocide.
Likewise the United States is far from innocent, both at the border with Mexico where there's many reports of militias hunting refugees, and in the large prison-industrial complex which houses the largest prisoner population in the world - a population that has an outsized number of minorities. These are worked to death. By any fair definition the US is carrying out a genocide.
However it is these countries' accusations we should somehow take seriously? Why? Why should we take What France claims China is doing at face value, when France itself is embroiled in colonial wars in Africa? What reason have these countries given us? The United States especially has a proven track record of lying in order to foment ill will against a geopolitical enemy.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  1. No one disagrees that america had committed atrocities and generally sucks with its foreign policy. Most educated people in the US are happy to admit and fight for change within the government on that. It is not denied.

  2. Has china allowed for international investigators to investigate the situation in Xinjiang?

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Not to mention communist prisons on average are far more humane and actually about rehabilitation than U.S. prisons, Xinjiang vocational re-education of potential fascists lauded by the entire Arab world being a prime example.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

Secret police is what you call an intelligence agency of a country you don't like

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Do you want the end of capitalism yes or no

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well that depends. A giant meteor will technically end capitalism. What's the point if we're not striving to improve everyone's quality of life?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

If you want the end of capitalism you'll support whatever it realistically takes to dismantle it. And that won't exactly be an "open" or "transparent" process while it happens. Simply put, the collective force that replaces capitalism will have to coerce certain people into accepting the change, if nothing else but for the safety of that new administration (IE avoiding rightwing takeovers, legit sabotage, hatecrimes etc).

Just remember that about anticapitalism - whatever form it takes, it's no dinner party. Even after a revolution, certain people try to resist things they have no material reason to oppose. Those people are reactionary - directionless, even dangerous unless they're re-educated or have privileges restricted.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I appreciate that. It's not lost on me that a lot of communist regimes got really fucked up by trade embargos, sanctions, counter-intelligence campaigns, etc. Power is rarely ceded willingly, of course. However, my primary concern lies with improving the quality of life for everyone, or at least maximizing the well being of the population. Part of that equation, for my point of view, includes the ability for people to think and speak freely without fear of reprisal by the government. Say what you will, but I've hosted eight different exchange students, including one from Russia; none were concerned about answering questions about their home country except for the kid from Hong Kong. I asked them whether they identified as a citizen of Hong Kong or of China first, because I was hoping to get an irl sample for how Hong Kongers actually felt, but let them out of the question when I confirmed with them that that was a sensitive question.

If you're living with a boot on your throat, does the distinction really matter if it's a capitalist's boot or a communist's boot?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Part of that equation, for my point of view, includes the ability for people to think and speak freely without fear of reprisal by the government

This is like the people who say "We're freer than the Chinese because I can call Trump a peepee poopoo pants on Twitter without being arrested!" when that doesn't actually do anything at all

but if you try and protest and change conditions materially and meaningfully, you can absolutely bet your ass you will be disappeared like the horror stories you find on reddit about "totalitarian regimes". The only reason why Americans don't think it doesn't happen in the West is either because it's so completely internalized that it becomes memeified ("Haha, I hope the FBI agent watching me through my camera is having a nice day!") or none of the media that they engage with reports on it.

IMO, this entire point is just a liberal ideological bludgeon, a condition that can be applied at-will to any government they want to criticize because no government will be good enough all of the time. it's one thing if you're an anarchist and oppose every government equally for not fulfilling that condition, that I can understand and respect, it's quite another when you're like "Oh, no, I hate authoritarianism! That's why we need to constantly criticize a country on the literal other side of the planet 99.7% of the time, and then only criticize our own country when somebody calls us out on it by saying 'Oh, yeah, America also does bad things too!'" Especially when America's role in the world for the last century at least, and more accurately really since its conception, has been a source of capitalist reaction across its whole hemisphere and later the whole planet, with hundreds upon hundreds of military bases and tens of millions directly and indirectly killed in wars. Criticizing, say, Cuba or DPRK for these sorts of things is effectively zooming in on a single corpse in righteous indignation while ignoring the seas of blood spilled by America behind you.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I mean, yeah, I am anti-authoritarian before anything else. That's basically where my problem with China, among many others, begins and ends. The US has a lot of big problems that need fixing immediately on that front, and that's without getting into the bodies under the front porch. We could go into that, if you like, I just didn't think it was particularly relevant at the moment.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If you’re living with a boot on your throat, does the distinction really matter if it’s a capitalist’s boot or a communist’s boot?

Try looking at it from the point of view of the oppressed class who is benefiting from communist rule, and being harmed by capitalist rule, rather than from the point of view of the super rich people.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Unless I happen to be mistaken, poor people get the bullet, too. We just don't hear about it because they're not famous. I'm taking a wild guess here, but I suspect that the muslims in Xinjiang aren't exactly what you would typically think of as the capital owning class. You can't even (practically, I'm sure there's some loophole or asterisk here) be critical of the bad ideas of your government, just shut up and kill more sparrows. As far as I can tell, it's trading oppression for sparkling oppression.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Nobody has been killed in Xinjiang. There is a reason its original liars had to specify it was a "cultural genocide," which it isn't, either. Like the full break down?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sure. I'd also appreciate some sources that would be considered reliable in the mainstream, but I won't ignore you if you don't have them.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (6 children)

The burden of proof is on those who make accusations, it is not the responsibility of others to convince you of what isn't happening. Further, you may have heard the adage that an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence, of which there is none and can therefore be dismissed. Even further, when we look at who stands to gain from such a narrative despite the lack of evidence, it follows that US imperial power and Sinophobia driven clickbait news corporations stand to gain monetary and political standing by publishing articles like this. This is the same tactic as the Holodomor myth (which is literally an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory made by nazi propagandists and pushed by nazi lover William Randolph Hurst)

However, I once had a similar outlook and needed to be convinced, so here's three sources. Also this.

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