Egon

:yea:

Thanks for addressing a lot of things I let slide for the sake of a good discussion, and thanks for doing it far more succinctly than I could've.

(This was the best emoji for pollen I could think of)

The Ukrainian state forces it's people to fight and does not allow them to leave. It has a choice and that choice is to listen to it's people and accept peace.
If you think they should fight despite the fact that they do not wish to, then go volunteer yourself. Otherwise let the people decide for themselves.
Also your suggestion that they should leave is funny. I mean yeah if we're in Fantasyland sure, they should leave. I also think Putin should give everyone a pony. Sadly we live in a world where Putin hasn't given me a pony, a world were parties doesn't give up leverage before a negotiation.
You guys keep talking about Russians being untrustworthy, but it was Ukraine that broke treaties https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements

Ukraine is far from spotless on the treaty-upholding-front. The current government was installed by the US, which is in direct breach of the Budapest Memorandum. The government has broken Minsk I and II which was a large part of the russian justification for the SMO.

Lmao excellent rebuttal good sir, perfectly shows the two sides.
"Hey here's a well thought out argument referring to general tendencies in online discussion and the current observable situation in Ukraine."
"Nuh uh"

It must be wild to as heavily programmed as you are

Bro it's not even 2 minutes of reading, get it together

Genuine question, not really educated in the pre-war history.

Yes. The Minsk I and Minsk II treaties were brokered between Russia and Ukraine. These treaties required Ukraine to stop shelling the LPR and DPR. Ukraine continued to shell these two regions despite these treaties. This was part of Russia's justification for their "Special Military Operation" which evolved into the full-scale war we see today (I consider them separate due to the fact Russia did not target critical infrastructure during the SMO, this doctrine only changed after further escalation).

These regions have a majority of ethnic Russians which is why they were targeted for shelling after Euromaidan in 2014. Since then tensions have only escalated.
Azov battalion have been integrated into the Ukrainian army. Part of their ideology is to rid Ukraine of Russians (this includes Ukrainian Russians.)
Sources:

• Bombings of civilians
• a news report about the bombing of civilians
• war crimes fighting separatists in these regions

For "anti-ethnic-russian sentiment":

• Ukraine attempted to ban Russian and Yiddish in 2019
• Ukraine has now banned Russian language books, music
• This democratic nation banned 11 parties for being "pro-russian"

Several of the sources linked in this comment touches on the subject as well as things that happened more than two years ago.

Currently the Ukrainian army shows a callous disregard for civilians using them as human shields. This does not foster a sense of people being safe under the Ukrainian government.

Putin is certainly one of these war-driving forces, as well as his minions.

Lmao Putin is a politician like so many others, not some moustache twirling villain. You're not really providing any reason for war apart from "Putin bad". Yes, Putin indeed bad, but Putin not entirety of Russian state apparatus. Despite the propaganda that would have you believe otherwise Putin can't snap his fingers and have his will exerted. That's not how states are run, especially not for years on end. If you do that then you lose the support of your base and no one can rule alone.
This war has support among the populace and the political elite, if it didn't them Prigozhins coup would have had much more support. The political elite and population also don't support the war because they're evil, but for material reasons. Putin is actually on the less militant side in the Russian attitude, he has been widely critiqued for now immediately fully escalating to a war instead of an SMO and he has been critiqued for not doing it sooner. This video is a good surface level primer for why Russia has been motivated to do as it did.

Hey we've got a military genius over here! Yes you're right, the way wars are negotiated is that the winning side completely gives up all terrain because we think they're stupid meanies and then they can ask for a peace pretty please.

Okay I just talked to Putin and he said they weren't going to leave and then negotiate, he called me stupid for suggesting it and asked me if I lived in fantasy land.
To be fair, that would have been the first time I'm history a peace deal was negotiated like that.

Fair point. If this were a situation were I was trying to convince the other part, then I would agree with you, my question doesn't create any strong argument and it is quite reductive. I've used it as a sort of gotcha in discussions when we reached the ideological level (russia is fascists genocider badman!) But to be quite honest I am not asking this as a gotcha now. I've asked it so much and never gotten an answer and I've gotten curious about what the honest answer is. I'd like to know how people can scream about fascism and against peace, while not being willing to fight themselves. If I truly believed the war in Ukraine was an existential threat, and was somehow able to square that with the fact ukrainians weren't willing to fight, and able to square that with the idea that was must go on, then I can't see how I wouldn't also be volunteering.

The question as I've posed it is flawed, it requires that we accept the people of Ukraine do not wish to fight and that the war is lost - I feel like I've presented a solid case for both, but it's still sort of a prerequisite - and anyone who agrees on those two fronts, is more than likely a person who is more informed than the person who thinks the war should continue. The venn diagramme overlap of people who can observe the basic facts, but still think the war should go on, is quite small.

Literally doing the playground "no u". Lemmy.ml isn't sending their best :(
Sorry for using 5-dollar words, english isn't my first language (it's russian, Putin has paid me personally for this interaction) and so sometimes I phrase things weirdly. Personally I'm used to people not speaking a language perfectly, so I try not to shame them for weird language use, but that's just one of the many ways I've been raised better than you. I'd like to thank my mother and yours

Czechoslovakia, that's a bingo! Thank you so much for filling out my bingo board. Sadly this still isn't an answer to my question, you have failed yet again.