this post was submitted on 23 Jul 2023
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Blåhaj Lemmy is a Lemmy instance attached to blahaj.zone. This is a group for questions or discussions relevant to either instance.

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Edit - This is a post to the meta group of Blåhaj Lemmy. It is not intended for the entire lemmyverse. If you are not on Blåhaj Lemmy and plan on dropping in to offer your opinion on how we are doing things in a way you don't agree with, your post will be removed.

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A user on our instance reported a post on lemmynsfw as CSAM. Upon seeing the post, I looked at the community it was part of, and immediately purged all traces of that community from our instance.

I approached the admins of lemmynsfw and they assured me that the models with content in the community were all verified as being over 18. The fact that the community is explicitly focused on making the models appear as if they're not 18 was fine with them. The fact that both myself and one a member of this instance assumed it was CSAM, was fine with them. I was in fact told that I was body shaming.

I'm sorry for the lack of warning, but a community skirting the line trying to look like CSAM isn't a line I'm willing to walk. I have defederated lemmynsfw and won't be reinstating it whilst that community is active.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

the same community (adorableporn) is also on reddit btw with 2.2m subscribers.

i have no grand moral opinion on this type of content. for me it is the same as femboy content for example, where people also push for a youthful, girly aesthetic.

as long as the content is made by consenting verified adults, i don't care.

it's like adults cosplaying with japanese school uniforms or calling your partner "mommy" or "daddy".

probably not the best move in terms of sexual morals for sure, in the grand scheme of things tho this is just how people express their sexuality i guess.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

it’s like adults cosplaying with japanese school uniforms or calling your partner “mommy” or “daddy”.

No, it's not, because no one mistakes those things for actual underage children

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

i had no problem distinguishing the models on the community from children.

maybe it's more difficult in some cases without looking for the onlyfans link or sth similar of the model somewhere in the post, but that's just human anatomy.

that's why the guy at the gas station asks for my ID card, because it is not always super clear. but apparently clear enough for reddit admins and PR people from ad companies.

i agree playing into the innocent baby aspect is probably not great for sexual morals and i wouldn't recommend this comm to a local priest or a nun, but this type of content thrives on pretty much every mainstream platform in some shape or form.

i get it, if this instance wants to be sexually pure and removed from evil carnal desires tho. that's kind of cool too for sure.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

i had no problem distinguishing the models on the community from children.

You didn't see the content I saw. Content that was reported as CSAM by someone on this instance, who also thought it was CSAM.

maybe it’s more difficult in some cases without looking for the onlyfans link or sth similar of the model somewhere in the post, but that’s just human anatomy.

Again, a group that is focused on models in which that is the only way you can tell that they're not underage, is a group that is focused on appealing to people who want underage models. That is a hard no.

Spin it how you like, but I am not going to be allowing material that is easily mistaken from CSAM

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I thought about this some more and I can feel a lot more sympathy for your decision now.

It must be horrible to get a user report about CSAM and then see a picture, which could be really CSAM on first glance.

Even if every user report was wrong from now until infinity, that initial CSAM suspicion, because of the false user report, probably makes moderating just a soul-crushing activity.

It is great if admins from other instances are willing to handle with these horror reports, just to give their users a bigger platform, but this service is not something that can be taken for granted.

I'm sorry for coming across as ignorant, I just did not consider your perspective that much really.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I totally get that and definitely don't blame Ada for defederating (although I don't think it's likely it was actually CSAM, nor that the community it was on is Inherently Problematic, as long as everyone in the posts is 18+, people's kinks are none of my business).

The thing I don't get is why reports made by blahaj users on lemmynsfw communities would go to the blahaj moderators at all. That seems like a design flaw in Lemmy, instance mods have no power to moderate content on off-instance communities, so why would they be notified of reports? That seems like it would clutter mod-logs for no reason and cause unnecessary drama (as happened here). Like if every subreddit post report immediately went to the Site Admins, that would be Terrible.

Though if Lemmy really is built like this for whatever reason, I would probably have done the same thing. I wouldn't want to have to be Subjected to everything that could be reported on an NSFW instance, there's probably some Heinous Shit that gets posted at least Occasionally, and I wouldn't want to see all of it either. I just think it's Really Stupid that lemmy is built this way, we need better moderation tools

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

The thing I don’t get is why reports made by blahaj users on lemmynsfw communities would go to the blahaj moderators at all.

Reports go to the admins on the instance the reporter is from, to the admins on the instance the reported account is from and to the admins of the instance the community the post was made to is from. The report also goes to the moderators of the community that the content was posted to.

Each instance only gets a single report, however many of those boxes it ticks, and that report can be dealt with by admins or moderators.

However, the results federate differently based on who does the action. So for example, me deleting content from a lemmynsfw community doesn't federate. It just removes it from my instance. However, a moderator or an admin from lemmynsfw removing lemmynsfw content will federate out.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

"Even if every user report was wrong from now until infinity, that initial CSAM suspicion, because of the false user report, probably makes moderating just a soul-crushing activity."

Then they shouldn't be doing it. If seeing something that looks even slightly off-putting causes this level of over-reaction, Ada doesn't need to be moderating a community for marginalized/at-risk people. I myself am a CSA survivor, and seeing my trauma being equated to some legal adults playing pretend is fuckin' bullshit. Seeing my trauma being equated to drawn pictures is fuckin' bullshit. My trauma being equated to AI generated shit is fuckin' bullshit. I'll tell you one thing, as a CSA kid, one thing I cannot stand is someone making decisions on my behalf. To protect me. Fuck you, I'll fuckin bite anyone that tries to take away my free agency again.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I myself am a CSA survivor

FYI, so am I

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Cool, welcome to the real world where one size does not fit all. We handle our trauma differently. But I don't subject others to my hangups. I don't use it as a cudgel to squash dissent. Your trauma is not your fault, but it is your responsibility, not ours, to deal with.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

AKA you couldn't think of a response that didn't make you sound hateful. Look, I don't have anything against you personally, Ada. We probably agree on 99.9% of shit. But you are definitely not well suited to admin. And now all the trolls on the fediverse know exactly what legal content to spam your inbox with to make you uncomfortable. Emotional moderators make for short-lived communities.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I've been moderating and community building for literal decades. I think I'll be ok

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Well, I'll be here watching the flames rise.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Context always matters. I always check if adult material has actually been made by consenting adults. I would feel sick, if not enough information had been provided for that, but I at least have never encountered CSAM fortunately.

I had classmates in high school with balding or even graying hair and full beards. Some adults older than me, look younger than my nephews. Revenge porn and creepshots are common. (or atleast were, I'm not on platforms where these are popular)

Without context, porn will always be a morally grey area. Even commercialized hyper-capitalist porn is still an intimate affair.

That's why I didn't use pornhub for example, before every user had to verify themselves before posting. Before that I only read erotica or looked at suggestive drawings.

I understand your perspective tho. You get hardly paid to keep this instance running, looking at pictures that without context could be CSAM could make this volunteer work very mentally taxing. This is how NSFW works tho.

Without context, any pornographic material featuring real humans could in truth be some piece of evidence for a horrible crime.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Context always matters. I always check if adult material has actually been made by consenting adults. I would feel sick, if not enough information had been provided for that, but I at least have never encountered CSAM fortunately.

If I can't tell, if I have to look something up because the people I'm looking at look like they're underage, then it doesn't matter what the answer is, because the issue is that it looks like CSAM even if it's not. And a community designed in a way that attracts people looking for underage content is not a space I'm willing to federate with.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Isn't it kind of shitty to tell an adult woman she can never be attractive or sexy because she looks too young? Do you truly believe that said person should never be allowed to find love, because it's creepy? Is she supposed to just give up because you think her body is icky?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I've covered this many times already.

The issue isn't individuals that happen to look younger than they are. The issue is with a community gathering sexual content of people that appear to be children.

The community that initiated this isn't even the worst offender on lemmynsfw. There is at least one other that is explicitly focused on this.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

So we can rely on you to ban any twink community on this instance, right? Cause the whole idea behind twinks is looking smooth, young, and pubescent. So it is a community that glorifies boys that look underage. You feelin icky about that one? Or is that "different"

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I feel like the people getting upset over this are taking these hypotheticals of "young looking adults just wanting to be able to make porn equally and that technically the community did nothing wrong".

The problem is that just ignores the fact that pedophiles would definitely use communities like that as a "foot in the door" to a comminity that would naturally have a lot of closetted pedophiles. The issue isn't young looking adults making porn, the issue is a community based around youngest possible looking adults is naturally gonna attract and encourage pedophiles.

It's like they say, "all it takes is allowing one nazi in your bar for it to rapidly turn into a nazi bar".

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I mean yeah, but I think the solution here is just age verification. If you're posting nsfw OC, you should have to verify age with mods, and if you're posting nsfw from online, you should be able to prove they're of age if prompted (like, if it's a famous pornstar, they should be verified on pornhub or onlyfans or something so it's easy to check whether they're of age).

Like, I have small tits, I'd like to be able to post nsfw without people insinuating I'm pedo-baiting or that people attracted to me are intrinsically pedophilic. Just have strictly enforced age-gates and ban anyone being creepy

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I guess Trans Littles can just go fuck off then? One of the biggest Trans comics artist is openly a little. Why are we in the business of regulating what consenting adults do?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No one is looking at a little and thinking that they're physically 15.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I wrote a comment but got more aggressive than I intended. My overall point though is there are young looking adults, there are old looking kids. Making a sweeping statement like you did is just wrong

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Young looking adults also aren't the issue.

The issue is a community that focuses heavily on models that are framed to look like they're not adults.

Not adults roleplaying. Not adults that incidentally happen to look younger than they are.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Again, the issue is a community with models that are framed to look like they're not adults.

There is no scenario where something that can be mistaken for CSAM will have a space here.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

And again, these are adults on an instance that was explicitly designated for NSFW works. Defederating was entirely within your right but these justifications seem really poorly thought out, and could have unintended consequences.

Should we shun non consensual play? Should we defederate from anything that shows BDSM? Because I can't see any reason why your justifications wouldn't apply to them

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Don’t be disingenuous. Genuine consent practices also consider that not everyone else consents to witnessing their play, so they don’t do it where it’s not welcomed. And it’s not welcomed on Blahaj Zone, in this case. That’s all.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Exscuse me but you're the one being disengenious, a NSFW instance had what!? Porn!? Stop the fucking presses. Are we going to defederate from all porn instances or just the ones you find icky? Where can I post my objection to having to be subjected to porn at all?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I am very disheartened by the number of people replying here who read “a community skirting the line trying to look like CSAM” and felt the need to go purposefully seek out that community to look through its images.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Probably because the community in question isn't trying to "skirt the line" and just posts popular pornstars that range from 18 to the mid twenties. I thought it was a kink community until someone finally linked the lemmynsfw post and it's actually just a community for cute pornstars.

Calling it CSAM-adjacent just means that nobody's comfortable actually looking at it to figure out what's going on, and hugely exaggerated.

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