this post was submitted on 08 Apr 2024
22 points (66.7% liked)

Privacy

31854 readers
126 users here now

A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.

Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.

In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.

Some Rules

Related communities

Chat rooms

much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
 

I am not satisfied with Linux's security and have been researching alternative open source OS for privacy and security So far only thing that's ready to use is GrapheneOS (Based on Android) but that's not available on desktop (Though when Android release Desktop mode it may become viable)

Qubes OS is wrapper around underlying operating systems, so it doesn’t really fix for example Linux’s security holes it just kinda sandbox/virtualize them

OpenBSD is more secure than Linux on a base level but lack mitigations and patches that are added to linux overtime and it's security practices while good for it's time is outdated now

RedoxOS (Written in Rust) got some nice ideas but sticks to same outdated practices and doesn't break the wheel too much, and security doesn't seems to be main focus of OS

Haiku and Serenity are outright worse than Linux, especially Haiku as it's single user only

Serenity adopted Pledge and Unveil from OpenBSD but otherwise lacks basic security features

All new security paradigms seems to be happening in microkernels and these are the ones that caught my eyes

None of these are ready to be used as daily driver OS but in future (hopefully) it may change

Genode seems to be far ahead of game than everything else

Ironclad Written in ADA

Atmosphere And Mesosphere Open Source Re-implementation of Nintendo Switch's Horizon OS, I didn't expected this to be security-oriented but seems like Nintendo has done a very solid job

Then there are Managarm, HelenOS, Theseus but I couldn't figure out how secure they are

Finally there is Kicksecure from creators of Whonix, Kicksecure is a linux distro that plans to fix Linux's security problems

if you know of any other OS please share it here

all 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 6 points 7 months ago

Whew, there's a lot to unpack here.

First, microkernels being the future: This is a sentence that was said time and time again, but while microkernels definitely have some advantages in separating components which could yield better security, in practice it also introduces other security concerns, not present with monolithic kernels, mostly with the communication between the kernel services.

Second, about the no secure Linux distros thing: As many others have mentioned, there are security-conscious Linux distros, mostly the "immutable" distros. You can use Fedore Silverblue (or even better, SecureBlue) as a daily driver, with Flatpak for your apps. That way, your main OS is read-only, thus harder to infect and all system updates are signed and verified. Using Flatpak helps enforce permissions on apps in a manner similar to Android permission (you can deny an app the right to see your files, for example).

Third, I don't really understand what you mean by "Linux's security holes". Of course it's not bug free, but no kernel of this magnitude is. Also, GrapheneOS uses Linux as well, albeit with a hardening patchset, but you can also get that with desktop Linux distros. If you think Linux (being a monolithic kernel) is automatically less secure than microkernel and hybrid kernel based systems, take a look at Windows and macOS, which both use non-monolithic kernels, but most security experts will tell you that you're better off using Linux.

Fourth, about all the niche, mostly hobby OSes you listed: A big part of security is about having more eyes on the source code. Even if you write a kernel in a "safe" programming language, there will be bugs. Something as advanced as a kernel that's ready for daily desktop use and provides advanced isolation between processes is going to be so complex that you won't be able to see what bugs arised from the different parts interacting with each other. Safe programming languages make it easier to write safe code, but don't stop you from messing up the logic that defines what apps have which permissions. Your best bet is to stick to software that has had time to mature and had more people and companies look through it. Linux is regularly audited by all tech giants, because all clouds use Linux to some extent. If it's secure enough to isolate the workloads in Google Cloud, and Amazon's AWS, it's going to be secure enough for your desktop, provided you use it well (make use of it's security features and don't shoot yourself in the foot by disabling mitigations and the like). This is partly why I think the idea that OpenBSD is more secure than Linux is somewhat outdated. Yes, they advertise it as such, but it has seen much-much less auditing than Linux did in the cloud era.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with playing around with alternatives operating systems, just don't think you'll be more secure just because something is written in Rust, or is a microkernel. Those can help, but there's much more to security than the guardrails a programming language or software architecture can provide, especially with something as complex as a modern kernel.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 7 months ago

I just read an older article about the black market using graphineos to create a supposed private phone to run drugs, however the FBI joined forces with two other countries to infiltrate a man in the middle attack and busted the drug ring. I think a private os is a pipe dream since you still need to get on the internet and as long as you’re online, you’re vulnerable.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I've not come across such a topic in a while; what security issues do you see with monolithic kernels that are not present in Microkernels? Other than the "more code so more bugs" part

[–] [email protected] 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Worse performance and increased attack surface due to substantial increase in number of system calls required for any given task?

Oh. You were asking how microkernels are better... They're smaller. I think that's about it. Great for things like RTOS where the scope of the kernel is much more limited, specialized, and likely needs to live in an MCU's tiny ROM.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

As I understand it, a crude way to specify a micro kernel might be to call it a specialised slice of a monolithic kernel. It's still a kernel, and it being more/less efficient, have better security etc depends on the code itself rather than something external.

Understandably, I understand that the motivation comes from a combination of embedded projects: I remember that Minix is still a good example of a micro-kernel albeit being extremely vulnerable and buggy. Microkernels are nice, but I suppose one should look for a compromise when thinking of an OS based on Linux which runs around the world, and having a specialised kernel might not be the best idea.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

As I understand it, a crude way to specify a micro kernel might be to call it a specialised slice of a monolithic kernel. It's still a kernel, and it being more/less efficient, have better security etc depends on the code itself rather than something external.

You've got a lot of it, yeah. A microkernel tends to try to implement the smallest amount of essential functionality needed. When used in a specialized environment, like embedded controllers (ex. ZMK firmware, which is built on the Zephyr Kernel), microkernels are great and can exhibit great performance and efficiency.

Once one starts trying to build a general-purpose OS with a microkernel, however, things deteriorate very quickly. Things that are essential for general-purpose computing usually do not make it into the scope of the microkernel's functionality. This means that anytime something as simple as opening a file is required, a lot more communication is needed between processes, increasing the number of times that calls need to cross between the kernel and user context boundary.

Every context change requires one or more operations and the isolation necessary to be secure, means that they microkernel has to act as a messenger any time that a subsystem needs to communicate with another. The total number of system calls grows at an exponential rate, killing performance and increasing the threat surface that an adversary can target (individual components even end up needing greater awareness of security because there are now a lot more potential "weak links" in the data transmission chain).

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

That's why a suitable middle-of-the-road approach seems to be statically compiling one's kernel with the least amount of add-ons (drivers - that's what most of the kernel is anyway) possible. I see it as a decent idea but annoying in practice since bigger updates mean either a script/manual intervention every time, and I like Debian so you can see how I perceive that.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Exactly. And it also introduces limitations, should your system usage exceed the bounds expected and established when compiling. Like so many other things, context matters.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 months ago

And now we've come a full circle. Microkernels are better because they have less code, but to make them usable across various systems you'd need to add more code. And after a point it'll stop being a micro kernel.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 months ago

I don't know about OS development to chime in, but what outdated practices does RedoxOS have?

Anti Commercial AI thingyCC BY-NC-SA 4.0

[–] [email protected] 14 points 7 months ago (1 children)

GrapheneOS is just Android and (as far as i know) all Android versions use SELinux. Why not just use a basic distribution like Arch with SELinux?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago (3 children)

It's not, GrapheneOS is hardened Android check their site for more information

And android is not just linux + SELinux there is much more to it

[–] [email protected] 6 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Of course Android is not just that and I never claimed that. Are we talking about the security of the kernel or the whole OS? If you deem the kernel used in GrapheneOS to be sufficient for you, I'm assuming that it is the rest of the OS that concerns you. What in particular do you find to be good in GrapheneOS that SELinux with AppArmor and a trusted userland doesn't achieve?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 7 months ago

IDK why people are downvoting you, you're absolutely right.

Android is Linux (with SELinux enabled and integrated) + a userspace designed to run sandboxed applications securely. The result is much more secure than probably any Linux distro (other than stuff like Qubes).

Sandboxes employed by Flatpak and Snap are extremely weak in comparison.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 7 months ago

Linux is run on basically all servers. What kind of security do you have in mind? Someone else already stated it, qubes and secure blue are good. Your text is rather vague, I don't understand what you are looking for.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 7 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 months ago

Their basic premise seems solid, but is it actively developed? it seems to go through long periods of inactivity