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Brood Parasitism in Leftist Politics (beehaw.org)

submitted 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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I want to draw attention to the elephant in the room.

Leading up to the election, and perhaps even more prominently now, we've been seeing droves of people on the internet displaying a series of traits in common.

Claiming to be leftists
Dedicating most of their posting to dismantling any power possessed by the left
Encouraging leftists not to vote or to vote for third party candidates
Highlighting issues with the Democratic party as being disqualifying while ignoring the objectively worse positions held by the Republican party
Attacking anyone who promotes defending leftist political power by claiming they are centrists and that the attacker is "to the left of them"
Using US foreign policy as a moral cudgel to disempower any attempt at legitimate engagement with the US political system
Seemingly doing nothing to actually mount resistance against authoritarianism

When you look at an aerial view of these behaviors in conjunction with one another, what they're accomplishing is pretty plain to see, in my opinion. It's a way of utilizing the moral scrupulousness of the left to cut our teeth out politically. We get so caught up in giving these arguments the benefit of the doubt and of making sure people who claim to be leftists have a platform that we're missing ideological parasites in our midst.

This is not a good-faith discourse. This is not friendly disagreement. This is, largely, not even internal disagreement. It is infiltration, and it's extremely effective.

Before attacking this argument as lacking proof, just do a little thought experiment with me. If there is a vector that allows authoritarians to dismantle all progress made by the left, to demotivate us and to detract from our ability to form coalitions and build solidarity, do you really think they wouldn't take advantage of it?

By refusing to ever question those who do nothing with their time in our spaces but try to drive a wedge between us, to take away our power and make us feel helpless and hopeless, we're giving them exactly that vector. I am telling you, they are using it.

We need to stop letting them. We need to see it for what it is, get the word out, and remember, as the political left, how to use the tools that we have to change society. It starts with us between one another. It starts with what we do in the spaces that we inhabit. They know this, and it's why they're targeting us here.

Stop being an easy target. Stop feeding the cuckoo.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago (5 children)

As a leftist:

True, It's a piece of paper. If you think that will save us, you're a dumbass.
Mostly True, Look up the ratchet effect.
Mostly False, we've had due process. It's been unfair to minority communities, but in general it's existed.
Mostly False, He was mildly better. This is faint praise given he was a demented fossil facilitating a genocide.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Watch out for the following five fallacies, and the cuckoo is easy to spot:

oversimplification: false dichotomy, ignoring relevant factors
genetic fallacy: instead of focusing on what is being said, the cuckoo always focuses on who says it
straw man: cuckoos are really eager to put words into your mouth, and try to force you to defend claims you never did in first place
ignore refutation: if you prove without a shadow of doubt that the cuckoo's claim is wrong, they'll ignore your refutation and still use it to back up even dumber claims
ad nauseam: same claim over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

Then as you spot the cuckoo, the rest is easier - for example, IMO a sensible approach is to point out what the cuckoo is doing, to whoever might be reading your comment, while disengaging so you aren't giving the cuckoo further time to sing.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago

That's quickly becoming my approach. Point it out and then immediately block them and stop engaging. Once you block them, they can't keep following you around spamming the same noise.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Many of these people legitimately hold these views. I have a friend who is absolutely a socialist who is still very much in favor of my country not aiding Ukraine as it would support "imperialism" in his eyes. My impression is that he and those like him are unwilling to ever compromise on any ideal they hold, even if it means not supporting any position whatsoever. Like you can debate him as much as you want about whether or not aiding Ukraine in any capacity is imperialism or not, but at the end of the day his main concern is not contributing to something he perceives as evil.

That said, I do agree that many of these people aren't being genuine. I sometimes wonder if he's secretly an accelerationist or something. Many people that use the same talking points as him online certainly are, rather than fascists trying to take us down from the inside.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago

I would argue that people who hold genuinely socialist views who laser focus on disempowering the left are nothing more than useful idiots for authoritarians and can safely be sorted into the same box as actual infiltrators and parasites. The intent of individuals isn't nearly as important as combating the behavior that's being exploited.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Stupid thing is that it's the humanity and empathy of the left that is both the draw and the weakness of the movement.

Conservatives can come into leftist discourse spaces and either pose as the extreme leftists you describe, or even just the more reasonable end of the conservatives (non facist/maga types, rare as they are any more) an they'll be engaged with in good faith. Since they're ultimately not there for a proper discussion though it results in nothing more than creating chaos and arguments

Liberal/leftists who walk into conservative spaces are greeted with scorn and derision, treated as lunatics from the start not worth listening to. Since the left would generally be coming in with honest intent though at best they waste their time shouting into an established echo chamber, or worse get convinced that there's a good middle ground to work towards.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Since the left would generally be coming in with honest intent though at best they waste their time shouting into an established echo chamber, or worse get convinced that there's a good middle ground to work towards.

I tried going to conservative spaces on Lemmy. The liberals wouldn't allow any dialogue. Not the conservatives, the liberals.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Absolutely. Conservatives have, unfortunately, sailed straight past us on political effectiveness in recent years. We're spending our time wringing our hands about doing the right thing and cajoling one another into doing the same. Unfortunately in a lot of cases modern leftism favors atomizing based on who a particular segment sees as having sufficient moral purity over solidarity. Meanwhile, conservatives don't really care about much of anything other than maintaining a socially conservative status quo. They'll even let people they hate pretend to be part of the club if they debase themselves enough to be politically useful. At the same time, they'll viciously attack anyone who isn't politically useful to them.

I'm not saying we ought to abandon our principles or start viciously attacking anyone who doesn't toe the line of being politically useful, but we need to remember how to build coalitions and think strategically.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I think that leftists generally have a hard time calling out people who argue in bad faith

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago (2 children)

We should genuinely be banning all tankies and accelerationists on sight. Allowing them to poison the debate to the extent they do really is our greatest flaw and the only real "leftist infighting" I've ever really come across.

Pretty sure leftist infighting is just a tankie dogwhistle at this point.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

This is just Lemmy and the whole "leftist" influencer sphere (read: people who watch Hasan Piker and take him seriously).

I completely agree with everything you mention here but you're going to make a lot of Lemmies very mad.

They aren't open to real discourse and will literally ally with Republicans if it means they can take down Democrats.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Claiming to be leftists

Encouraging leftists not to vote or to vote for third party candidates

Highlighting issues with the Democratic party as being disqualifying while ignoring the objectively worse positions held by the Republican party

Attacking anyone who promotes defending leftist political power by claiming they are centrists and that the attacker is "to the left of them"

Using US foreign policy as a moral cudgel to disempower any attempt at legitimate engagement with the US political system

Seemingly doing nothing to actually mount resistance against authoritarianism

Except for the one example you listed that I omitted here, you've just described, like, at least 1/3 of Lemmy, maybe more.

The obvious ones I blocked long ago. There were some I didn't block, but a good chunk of those up and disappeared right after the election in November, so that was not suspicious at all.

Frankly, I'm just about done with anything "political" on social media and am just going to start employing keyword filters. I'll just have to find some other void to shout into when I need an outlet lol.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Yep. It's a damn mess.

I don't claim to know how to make them be honest about their motivations or, in the case of those few who are genuinely being taken in by this garbage, wake the hell up and realize what they're throwing away. But I know that having the idea out there in the open in a digestible way can at least help some people get a better view of what's going on. Maybe they'll follow suit and block some of the worst ones. Maybe they'll rely less on social media for their perspectives on the world and realize that Lemmy isn't the exception to its toxicity just because it's open source.

We need to be more aware of them than we have been, though, because it's getting worse.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

I just don't know a good way to deal with that, TBH. I wish I did.

how to make them be honest about their motivations

It's tough. If I get a funny feeling about an account and think they might be a concern troll (I think that's the term that applies here; if not, someone please correct me. I think "false ally" is a sub-class of that, but I'm shooting from the hip here),

I'll typically look back through their history, try to put things in context, and get a feel from there. The ones I blocked were pretty much all one-trick ponies, so that was easy (though tedious as it took a while "vetting" each one).

The problem there is, yes, you've identified that person. But everyone else needs to do the same legwork and come to the same conclusion. You can't just put up a sign that says "Troll" lol. Depending on the community/instance, you could report them, but that often puts mods in a sticky situation because they usually don't want to suppress anyone's viewpoint as long as it's not violating any rules.

or, in the case of those few who are genuinely being taken in by this garbage

That's even tougher. First, you have to figure out if they're the troll or the one who was trolled (troll-ee lol?) . And one, very rightfully, can't /shouldn't just start calling people trolls or shills. For one, they might be the troll-ee; going out of the gate with name-calling and accusations is definitely not the way to convince them to re-evaluate their views. For another, it just sets a bad tone and gives the impression that "everyone who disagrees with me is a troll".

But sometimes they are. What do you do then?

Wish I had an answer that didn't involve writing multiple theses on a number of topics as they try to sealion me into submission lol.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

So, everyone actually doesn't have to do the same legwork. If most of the posters in a community block someone, that person won't be able to post in most of the threads in that community and won't get the engagement they're looking for.

Whether they're trolls or whether they're useful idiots, I say block them. Not only that, actively encourage others to do the same. If we take to blocking these people on sight the moment they start spouting this bullshit, they very quickly will see threads full of "# additional responses" that they can't actually see or respond to.

In some cases it might actually be worth reporting them, too. A lot of them go well beyond the rules of the communities they're engaging with, but I've also seen at least one instance where a very prominent cuckoo-poster got chased off the instance by the staff. He was basically told to knock it off or leave and he chose the latter. Good riddance.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Don't the people you block still see your posts?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago (2 children)

I'm under the impression that they can't reply to them directly.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Maybe we want politicians who will actively work for us, economically as well as socially.

https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Sounds great. Vote them in.

I would love to see a push to the left in US politics and in the Democratic party. I voted for Sanders, and I think the kind of arguments he's been making consistently for decades would be a great perspective to see gain traction. The rallies he's been putting together with AOC and the responses he's gotten at town halls even in very red districts have been encouraging.

I fully support primarying Democrat politicians who fail to offer real solutions. 100% get them the hell out of office and replace them with people who will reconnect the party with the people and fight for affordable housing, medicare for all, and living wages. Let's chuck Schumer out on his ass.

But our approach needs to be viable. It won't happen by splitting the vote. That's just math. I don't like first past the post, and I'd love to get rid of it at the first available opportunity, but it's the system we're working with right now.

You can't play chess using only your knights because you like the way the horsey looks. You have to know what the pieces do and use them to their fullest extent. By all means, make your pawns into queens, but to do that you have to think about which moves you're actually capable of making on the board.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

So here's the thing, on my state ballot last November, I had TVs corporate Democrat who votes with the Republicans half the time (the time it matters), and a new Dem who could or would not articulate a platform for or against anything. Bet I voted third.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

So run for office or find a candidate who might and help them get to that position.

Voting for a third party, unless it's in a small local election where they might actually have a shot, will do literally nothing but get us a Republican.

If you're still sitting here in April of 2025 and saying that the Democrats are the same as the Republicans, though? Get the hell out of our nest.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago

So run for office or find a candidate who might and help them get to that position.

This is literally 100% the answer. It could be within the Democratic party, it could be outside it, the details are details.

The point is that someone who comes up to you saying "I'm not voting for a DEMOCRAT, how could that ever help?" and also "I'm not voting! That will help, that's the answer, you should too." is definitely either lying or badly confused.

Like, yes, our system is corrupt and a lot of Democrats are a huge part of the problem. That won't go away if you refuse to engage with it. It will get worse.

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