this post was submitted on 12 May 2025
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So next week my 2 yo's sons kindergarten are planning a zoo trip. Apparently they will be talking about it before and after. It costs the kids nothing and the teachers tickets are coming out of a collective fund we already paid money into. My wife really wants him to go, she grew up not being able to go to a lot of school trips due to growing up in foster care/neglect and really fears him getting ostracized. She says she knows what it was like to not go and it really comes close to her trauma so its not really a subject I can argue against. The teachers obviously recommend going, so I'm all alone in saying no. I would stay home, perhaps prepare our own outing and look into talking about animal liberation but I feel so alone in it. My wife gave me the option to veto the trip even though she really wants him to go.

There really is not much more to argue between us too, my focus is animal liberation, hers is how not partaking in some activities alienates one from society. And in a society based on animal oppression a lot of activities require some form of animal oppression. I don't know how this contradiction is going to resolve and it's making me very anxious.

How do you cope with the feeling of loneliness? Do you have good kid friendly material relating to animal liberation? What could be a good alternative for us that day? What if I just gave in? I can't do this for every zoo/farm outing anyway.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 day ago (2 children)

If I may make a suggestion... You should go on the trip. And be the alternative guide that explains the reasons why the animals shouldn't be kept there for the sake of human leisure and entertainment. Be compassionate. To the animals there as well, as they can't be rewilded either. And there's also ways of having ethical educational zoo like trips. Plenty of facilities out there doing work like this. Animals can be visited as they are being rehabilitated to be released back. And the release day is far more beautiful and incredible than what you can find at a zoo. There's also centers for endangered species that are helping them getting their numbers back up. Offer them as alternatives for next time. The people there are also much more educated and educational. You can't function in the world if you don't provide context and then offer alternatives. Don't mention Veganism. There's too much prejudice to that word. And for a pre-school context, that can even become more overcharged with other parents and educators. Mention animal wellfare and how countries have banned Bullfighting and Circus Acts with animals and explain why. And why zoos and Aquarius should be next on the the list.

I always find humour in talking to people who became Vegan during the 2016/2019 boom, they somehow think the world is going to go Vegan and should be Now!!!!! Me?... this middle aged fart that has been on this path for almost 20 years now finds some solace that there's more people talking about it. Slavery is illegal now, but companies, human traffickers and sociopaths still find illegal ways of doing it. Women have more rights now - well, in some places not even that- but even where they do have more rights, domestic violance is still a common place unfortunately. And racism seems to be in rampant fashion these days. All this to say, the road ahead isn't a straight line, and that the point of intrinsic value that your trying to achieve is to educate a child on why this should matter, regardless of where one is. The first step is to ask if this child in question wants to go. Teaching liberation through an act of forbidding seems at odds with itself. Even to a 2 year old. It builds weird conflicting mnemonics. The path to better this world is never reached by mimicking patterns of tiranny, as it initiates it's own cicle of resistance. But make no mistake, this path you and I share is one of resistance, one initiated by the the tiranny of treating sentience as comodity. The ownership over someone. Don't make that same mistake with the child you parent. Whomever that tiny 2 year old person is, doesn't belong to you or anyone. You are there to educate and guide. And if you're doing a decent enough job, you're gonna end up educated and guided along the way in return. But I get your exhaustion, I really do. You just have to remember it comes with the territory. It's a resistance, not a winning parade. That's what tyrants like to throw. And remind yourself even more often of this... that if your journey is long and weary, the one of your child's has just begun.

I'm running long here, but you're the one who approached strangers online for advice. Very personal advice as well. But word of advice? don't. Asking strangers for what their thoughts are on your relationships with your partner and child... if it sounds weird to do it in the real world it's weird to do it in the digital one too. I know veganism feels isolating and you're just reaching for a support group, and that is why I gave you such a long and detailed answer. I hear you. I get your frustration. Oh, how I really do. But this is a slippery slope for terrible outcomes. You're out to get some possible terrible or toxic influence from people who have no stake in the matter. Not to mention, your partner might feel betrayed to read your post if you didn't disclose your decision to ask "Lemmy Vegans" what they think of what are obviously very personal things to both of you. I'm not scolding you, I'm just being considerative of your context.

Sum it all up to this... You used to just be Vegan. Now, you have to parent with a belief system that the world has not caught up to yet or never will. It's up to you how well you handle that now.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The first step is to ask if this child in question wants to go. Teaching liberation through an act of forbidding seems at odds with itself. Even to a 2 year old. It builds weird conflicting mnemonics. The path to better this world is never reached by mimicking patterns of tiranny, as it initiates it's own cicle of resistance. But make no mistake, this path you and I share is one of resistance, one initiated by the the tiranny of treating sentience as comodity. The ownership over someone. Don't make that same mistake with the child you parent. Whomever that tiny 2 year old person is, doesn't belong to you or anyone. You are there to educate and guide. And if you're doing a decent enough job, you're gonna end up educated and guided along the way in return. But I get your exhaustion, I really do. You just have to remember it comes with the territory. It's a resistance, not a winning parade. That's what tyrants like to throw. And remind yourself even more often of this... that if your journey is long and weary, the one of your child's has just begun.

Damn, I came in here to write something, and you sucked the words right out of my head. I guess to put it my own way, one thing that I've learned through my travels leftward, is that these ideas and movements are not created in a vacuum, they're created through practice in the real world. As leftist parents, we have to understand the position we're placed in. Our kids are going to experience a world that runs counter to how we view it. The older they get, the more exposer they have in that world. We have to be the counterweight that brings balance to their experiences, that shows them what that world won't. It has to be measured, thoughtful, and careful. We're not going to win them over by hitting them with long-winded rants about injustice. Isolation also isn't the answer either, not for them, or for you. Practice will show them the way, being involved will show them the way, it'll give you opportunities to provide your perspective on what they are experiencing. Besides, you'd be surprised who you meet at these events, you might just find someone else ideologically aligned with you. I have a comrade I get lunch with on the regular now that I met through dance class, of all places.

@[email protected] I also want to extend an invitation to the parenting matrix chat (see the sidebar of [email protected] for info). It's a growing little community, and while we might not all be Vegan, we are all parents.

All things considered though, your kiddo is two, I also have a two-year-old, they're just looking to have a good time. The odds that they remember this trip to the Zoo are basically zero, so go with them, have fun, see the animals, maybe provide some light commentary about the whole thing, and you never know who might agree with you. Your kid will have fun regardless. Isolation is never going to provide positive changes.

ancom-heart

[–] [email protected] 1 points 13 hours ago

For me I try to decide these things by looking at "what if the non-human animals were humans" because I still have a very speciest view on the world. This particular zoo had human exhibits not too long ago so it's not even such a big hypothetical. For me that would be very hard no. What is it that our great-grandparents should have done in this case? And how is it different in this case? Can this be a visual lesson about how animals are forced to live in captivity and made a spectacle out of? I doubt the latter, because I can't put this in a proper context for a two-year old no matter how clever he is, he doesn't know about violence yet. He has no framework of reference. I intend to talk to him about captivity, and already do whenever farm animals appear in books, but for him it would be just a happy day looking at animals with his friends. Also I wouldn't be there this is a kindergarten outing, I'm not sure if in other countries parents go with the kids on such outings but here the parents aren't welcome because it would interfere with how the teachers run the trip.

And I disagree that he wouldn't remember this trip, he will forget about it some day, but he remembers and talks about trips we took days ago so this would be on his mind for at least a couple days during which he processes it and the view of animals in captivity becomes normalized. I know I can't forbid him from seeing zoos and I don't intend to be a strict parent that ensures his kid lives vegan no matter what. He will have to make choices on his own I know that and I will give him the freedom to make immoral choices when he can make such a distinction, but for the time being I have to make sure that he can understand what he sees. And for this specific trip I don't know how I can make him understand what he is going to see/had seen without a long rant about animal liberation and captivity that would fly over his had.

My mind is fairly made up about him not going, I'm open to be challenged however. But I was more looking for advice on how to talk to him about animal liberation, if there were kid friendly resources out there to aid etc. How other vegans cope with the feeling of having to fight your loved ones. I am going to make an alternative trip with him, it's not going to be an ordinary day, and I am looking if we have animal sanctuaries that we may be go to, or like wildlife preserve.

@[email protected]

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 day ago

Thanks for your input. I have not much to reply with but didn't want your comment to just linger.