this post was submitted on 12 Mar 2024

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TenForward: Where Every Vulcan Knows Your Name

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I'd be angry too (kbin.melroy.org)

submitted 8 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 51 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Isn’t this just the story of the allied powers in World War Two repackaged into science fiction? The members were:

The British who were sort of friends with the Americans but regarded them as less civilized and less experienced in running a nation.

The French who literally fought the Hundred Years’ War against the English.

The Soviets who didn’t like any of those people and proceeded to argue with all of them thereafter.

The Americans who had existed for a little over a century, invented the nuke after winning a fight with a World power in an ascendant phase, and decided it was on them to guarantee World peace.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Now I understand why the Germans always sounds so angry.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 8 months ago

I read the first line and thought it was talking about the fediverse lol. Who else thought that? Can't just be me.

[–] [email protected] 114 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (3 children)

I see a different reason Romulans are so upset. The Romulans and Vulcans were one people at one point with the major split being the Vulcans embracing logic and rejecting the hot-blooded and passionate Romulans. So millennia later do the Vulcans soften and embrace their emotion-having brothers? No. They find these other hot-blooded and passionate creatures called humans and then work patiently to shepherd them and their "Federation of Planets" into dominance in the Alpha quadrant of the galaxy all while still keeping Romulans at arms length. That would leave me bitter too.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 8 months ago

Also don't forget that Spock was shocked that they were cousins. The Vulcans not only broke up with them they also memoryholed them so deep that it was news that they were related.

Think of how hard it would be to cover up something in the era of computers that big. That billions of your own species are just out there and you have no idea. This is estrangement to a very high extreme.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

The Vulcans didn't know the Romulans were their long lost brothers until Errand of Mercy, did they? Hard to reconcile with a group who noped off thousands of years ago and may not even exist anymore.

Not to say this wouldn't factor into the Romulan's attitude, it probably would, but it would be in an irrational way.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 8 months ago

Hard to say. There was direct Romulan meddling in the Vulcan government in the fourth season of Enterprise. Some people on both sides certainly knew, but it probably wasn't widespread knowledge.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I dunno', seems like the difference between teaching a curious child in the humans vs teaching a smartass knowitall in the Romulans. Still kinda' makes sense why they cannot kiss and make up.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (3 children)

Romulans didn't need to be taught. They were always technological equals (possibly superiors if you count cloaking). Yet instead of making amends with an equal, Vulcans chose to embrace the neophyte humans and grow them to technological equality instead of embracing their brother and sister Romulans.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago

Because they didn't know they existed until humans had built the second Enterprise.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 8 months ago (1 children)

The technology is a side-effect. The thing the Vulcans want to teach is their philosophy.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

That didn't work out so well with humans.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Didn't it? Not that humans became straight up Vulcans, but Vulcans did want to get the benefits of humanity's drive without the parts where we nuke each other. Most Vulcans in the 24th century would probably consider this plan a success.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Humanity had already made it through its nuclear wars. So what Vulcan philosophy did humanity embrace through this "teaching"?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

That's a very good question. I'm not sure we can discern a specific answer from canon. Rather, we infer it based on Vulcan intentions in the 22nd century and the end results in the 24th.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago

The canon events of Enterprise seems to suggest very little went the way the Vulcans intended for humanity. At the beginning of the series, it was the Vulcans in the leadership role over humanity, while by the end of the series, it was humanity in the leadership role with the creation of starfleet.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Yes, because once again, it's far easier to teach a curious child than a smartass who thinks they've got it already.

The Romulans and Vulkans are different on a fundamental level. They both separately DO think they 'get it' and the other does not. Their story is specificially about how they cannot make up. By saying, "I don't get why they cannot be friends." you're literally ignoring their entire reason for being written in to the show as opposition to Vulkan.

Neither of them have the "correct" answer. Pure logic doesn't work out, and pure emotion doesn't, either. The entire point is that these "advanced" species still have fundamental social flaws and still conflict over silly things.

They're basically trying to say, "It takes more than intelligence and advanced technology to overcome bigotry."

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Yes, because once again, it’s far easier to teach

You're doubling down on the "teaching" bit. I'm not seeing a "teaching" angle that makes any difference here. What is it that you think Vulcans taught humans than they wanted to teach Romulans?

By saying, “I don’t get why they cannot be friends.” you’re literally ignoring their entire reason for being written in to the show as opposition to Vulkan.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying it could be the perspective of the Romulans. The Romulans are less driven by logic and rationale than by their emotions and passions. Meaning, they'd make this assessment overriding logic and instead embracing emotion, envy and anger in this case.

Neither of them have the “correct” answer. Pure logic doesn’t work out, and pure emotion doesn’t, either. The entire point is that these “advanced” species still have fundamental social flaws and still conflict over silly things.

Absolutely, and humans are no exception to these conflicts. In the area of this conflict of thought process Humans, Vulcans, and Romulans are equal. There is no position that all 3 agree on 100% with each other.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

The teaching angle is to emphasize the Vulkan angle since you were making arguments for the Romulan angle already. Even the "emotionless" Vulkan don't constantly reach out for the obvious logical solution because there are sociological reasons they expect no purchase. Reasons that purposefully reflect faults of humanity, and thusly are inherently illogical to some degree given the "Vulcan" prescription of excellent logic.

If you want to be charitable to the writers, it's a great way to point out how bigotry trancends logic. They might actually make headway with outreach, but they do not, because Vulkans are the know-it-all types. I sort-of stated the expected dynamic backwards, but it still works because I'm sure Romulans would still dismiss the intelligence of Vulkans for nearly the exact same reason: they think they already have it figured out.

Yes, it's illogical, but that's part of the point: Logic is not wisdom. Someone can be plenty intelligent and yet still be a fool.

It's worth not over-analyzing, though, since it is a situation set up for allegory of human folly in a TV show, not one written in to a planned book series where it might have to stand up to stronger cohesive scrutiny. All you have to do is not explain things well, and suddenly the script isn't cohesive with canon. They are written to be laughably similar species to reinforce how dumb bigotry is, so something basically HAS to make little logical sense, because bigotry is illogical.

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