"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down? That's not my department", says Wernher Von Braun.
this post was submitted on 22 Apr 2025
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With the amount of classified information that goes into weapons manufacturing, where your just making doo-dad#1, it's understandable some people wouldn't even know their doing something wrong.
Makes me think of the, "when does life begin" debate. When do random parts become a weapon of mass destruction?
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I laughed and upvoted the meme but then I had to find it again and double check to see if it specified a country.
The Devil vs an A10, who would win?
That might be a good buddy comedy about the rapture where Hell rises to the surface but the US Military's actually got it under control somehow. Like a damn minotaur comes through the fences and swings a helicopter into the pavement by it's tail, but a dude in a turret on a humvee shreds it like swiss cheese and all the goblins storming the gate stop cold and kneel with their hands on the back of their head very nervously.
Someone was telling me about a series about a similar premise, which ended with the US military bombing Hell with all the civilians in it, out of essentially religious fanaticism.
Feels more fitting.
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Got offered interviews at Raytheon and Lockheed once. Said no immediately. Can't have a good conscience working for these companies.
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At MIT in the 1980's it was called, "Get your fingerprints on the murder weapon."
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Why?
Of all the tools for oppression and murder, advanced weaponry is pretty low on the list for what actually makes the murdering happen. If you work for a company that does any kind of business with any repressive regime (ie most companies above a certain size), the simple fact that you're working for a cog in enabling the economy of the repressive regime to pay its cops, its soldiers, its secret police and informants and massive bureaucracy, is as much as a contribution as "I was .1% of designing a multirole jet that's 10% better than the previous multirole jet"
Hell, anyone making steel of the correct grade to go into small arms probably kills more innocent people, by that standard, than your average person working for Western defense contractors.
I mean yes there is a sort of "there is no ethical consumption under capitalism" dilemma when it comes to working. But just with that dilemma, you don't just give up, you try to minimize your participation as much as you can healthily do. And I think not working for a corp who's sole purpose is to develop weapons for killing people is one of those no brainers.
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I'll go even farther. Have you voted in the last 50 years? Guess what you help elect the president and chief commanding death at the end of the bayonet and the from the top of the drones.
And if you haven't voted (but been able to), you are likewise guilty for allowing the candidate who became president and CiC to commit their crimes (instead of the crimes the other candidate would have committed).
The only way forward is to improve society as a whole.
Hmm if all the candidates will both be responsible for killing people, are the people who didn't vote responsible? Technically the only innocent people would be the ones who stop the candidates from being elected. but I'll drink to improving society as a whole.
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If less people worked to make weapons, there would be less weapons made.
How is this a hard concept to understand?
If less people worked to make weapons, there would be less weapons made.
Okay?
How is that relevant?
Do you think that there is a dire shortage of tools for murder, and only the modern defense industry is sustaining the strained supply?
Do you think that there is a dire shortage of tools for murder, and only the modern defense industry is sustaining the strained supply?
Israel, Russia, and Ukraine sure seem to think so. None are producing enough munitions domestically to satisfy themselves.
Less weapons made still means less weapon used.
Israel, Russia, and Ukraine sure seem to think so. None are producing enough munitions domestically to satisfy themselves.
In the case of Russia and Ukraine, the reason they need to produce more munitions is to prevent the opposition from having the advantage in the war. If both sides were totally stripped of munitions by tomorrow, you wouldn't see a cessation of the war, you'd see a continuation of the war simply with less advanced tools, such as in the civil war in Sudan. And Russia has already demonstrated that it has no shortage of men who are willing to murder people with knives and sledgehammers.
Don't really know what you think "No more munitions!" is going to achieve here. Certainly don't know what shunning the Western MIC is going to do here, except expose more Ukrainians to Russian genocide.
Israel isn't producing enough munitions to satisfy itself because it knows it doesn't have to when the US is willing to subsidize their genocide.
Less weapons made still means less weapon used.
No, it means less of that particular weapon used.
So do you work for a defense contractor or do you just have great respect for the act of killing in general
Sorry for having the radical idea that mass violence predates specialized weapons industries. Or the radical idea that countries should be allowed to defend themselves against genocidal aggressors. Whichever of the two you're objecting to.
It is pretty radical to argue that a small contingent of Zionist Israelis would be successfully eradicating the people of Palestine if both sides just had sticks, so the U.S. should just keep manufacturing and selling MK-84 bombs. Or we can talk about how absurd a claim it is that the arms industry is looking out for the little guy—you know, the group that can pay for less of their product? Thank god for arms manufacturers—that’s probably what Uyghurs think when they’re stopped at checkpoints by military police
It is pretty radical to argue that a small contingent of Zionist Israelis would be successfully eradicating the people of Palestine if both sides just had sticks, so the U.S. should just keep manufacturing and selling MK-84 bombs.
Yes, a small contingent of some half-a-million Israeli soldiers and reservists obviously wouldn't be able to shoot any Palestinians if the US wasn't supplying them. This is why nowhere on earth does genocide happen, save when America is supplying someone involved.
Or we can talk about how absurd a claim it is that the arms industry is looking out for the little guy
lmao
Not even trying, are you?
Thank god for arms manufacturers—that’s probably what Uyghurs think when they’re stopped at checkpoints by military police
"If only they didn't have stealth jets created by the massive and advanced Chinese defense industry" probably isn't what goes through the minds of most Uyghurs when stopped by military police.
Yeah, that’s a pretty pointless response on the Uyghur front and I don’t think we’re making progress on the “how easily is the genocide carried out” front so let’s just drop everything else and hone in here:
China’s comprehensive surveillance system is what makes tracking the movements of Uyghurs possible. It is what has made detaining and killing them so easy. So the people that made that system possible are responsible. Please explain how actually it’s nobody’s fault because things just happen.
Yeah, that’s a pretty pointless response on the Uyghur front
"I wish I was being beaten to death with a homemade truncheon, instead of a mass-produced one"?
China’s comprehensive surveillance system is what makes tracking the movements of Uyghurs possible. It is what has made detaining and killing them so easy. So the people that made that system possible are responsible. Please explain how actually it’s nobody’s fault because things just happen.
You're absolutely right. Everyone who makes computers for any company which sells to China is going to hell.
I’m sure it would be interesting to talk to you in some other set of circumstances—I think you have twice now made a salient point about how seemingly innocent industries end up fueling these genocides, just now and elsewhere regarding steel manufacturing—but under these circumstances it’s like pulling teeth. You are arguing that advanced weaponry does not increase bloodshed, which I disagree with, and you are avoiding any discussion of responsibility, which I think is a pretty natural impulse within all of us but it really fucking matters. I hope at least that you enjoyed interpreting everyone’s critiques in the worst possible light.
You are arguing that advanced weaponry does not increase bloodshed, which I disagree with,
Man, go on and look at the bloodiest conflicts in world history. Tell me what advanced modern tools they were waged with. Tell me what advanced technology enabled Pol Pot to stick the heads of dissidents on wooden stakes and murder some 25% of the entire population.
and you are avoiding any discussion of responsibility, which I think is a pretty natural impulse within all of us but it really fucking matters.
No, I'm not avoiding a discussion of responsibility. I'm pointing out that a double-standard for responsibility is being used. You want the defense industry to be the scapegoat to avoid having to confront that every major industry that does international business is neck-deep in horrific shit by the standard of "You sell it, you're responsible for what it's used for". You can try to avoid looking in the mirror by pointing fingers, but it's a very easy tactic to recognize. "Weapons evil" is an easy sell on an emotional level, but you don't want to confront that it doesn't actually hold up as a coherent argument.
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There’s a big difference between making steel vs knowingly making weapons that are themselves illegal or being used in genocide.
knowingly making weapons that are themselves illegal
Beg pardon
or being used in genocide.
Of course, making other materials to support genocide is much more moral.
Anyone involved in the production of white phosphorus weapons, cluster bombs, or depleted uranium munitions are knowingly participating in a war crime. Everyone from the assembly line workers to the designers to the executives needs to be locked up.
Yes, there are other non-weapon items we also need to sanction Israel to prevent access to, such as bulldozers.
Anyone involved in the production of white phosphorus weapons, cluster bombs, or depleted uranium munitions are knowingly participating in a war crime. Everyone from the assembly line workers to the designers to the executives needs to be locked up.
WP is legal for use as an incendiary and smokescreen, cluster bombs are not banned by the US, DU is not illegal by any treaty I'm aware of.
Yes, there are other non-weapon items we also need to sanction Israel to prevent access to, such as bulldozers.
Nothing should be going into Israel from any civilized country, if we were actually discussing questions of morality and interaction through one's labor for internationally trading firms.
Continuing to sell white phosphorus to those who have openly deployed it against civilians is an act so immoral, we should be rioting to bring these manufacturers in.
Yeah, I think they'd argue for DU instead of against it. They're not using that against people they're using that against war machines.
There was controversy during the Gulf War about DU munitions from 20mm autocannons. 30 years of study has disproven some of the initial scares, but concerns remain about DU dust from such shells possibly being widely dispersed enough to cause health problems (though not radioactivity-related health problems).
Tank DU munitions are generally regarded as safe anymore, though.
OK, I guess we should stop harvesting wheat and making flour because it could possibly be used to support a genocide, but don't even bother thinking about stopping the manufacture of the bombs being dropped.
Or maybe the problem isn't "Weapons are being produced", it's "Authoritarian regimes are being traded with".
It almost sounds like you might be suggesting that there's no ethical consumption under capitalism
Something like that. And little ethical work.
I agree: Everyone is terrible.
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This is one of the few reasons I dislike living in the area I do, defense contractors are basically the only ones nearby hiring for engineering roles. Luckily I work remotely, but if that ever changed and I couldn't find another remote position, I'd probably have to move. I'm not about to sell my soul.
Or, and hear me out, get a job and suck at it.
Found the Boeing recruiter!
Same for me, except IT.
Its pretty much either work at The Base or Geek Squad. One of these options pays enough to leave the area.
Am getting a niche going for elderly centric IT help.
All we have is elderly here 🤷 take that over jarheads
Id take the jarheads tbh. They can usually follow instructions and admit it if they don't know what they're doing. Civil Engineers were always a fun tech support call, too.
Sounds like good honest work but i don't think id have the patience for it long term
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I know which one it isn’t!
God I wish I was smart enough to be a Galen Erso