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I'm not sure I think Israel is engaged in genocide - although I'm deeply unhappy with some of their military approaches.
Hamas, on the other hand, is unashamedly aiming at genocide. Their started aim is the death of all Jews and they are frequently heard chanting "from the river to the sea".
My country has been voting to condemn Israel's treatment of Palestine in the UN until 2022 but they will probably vote the same now. As far as I know my country doesn't support Israel monetarily either so I'm pretty happy.
I feel that taking one side over the other without allowing for any nuance in that complicated clusterfuck over there is disingenuous. I feel very sorry for all civilians caught between the many murderous assholes in that region, but I can't fully support one group while completely condemning the other. Acting like it's a black and white issue is so very wrong and not helpful.
Which side is committing genocide? That’s the side to oppose in any fight.
I love genocide. I just wish there was some way I could actually vote for it. Instead I'm stuck voting for the closest option which does none of what I want but fortunately both sides support Israel killing Muslims in mass.
I'll put this here because people are dumb as hell /s
If my country was financing this, I would be taking the streets.
If I took to the streets over this, I would make protestors look bad because I have no experience, no social skills, no support network, and I'm a terrible rhetorician, especially when I am angry. Additionally, my family is fast to call the cops and has promised me that they would cooperate with the police if I ever got on their radar, so my presence would be a security culture issue.
Are you doing something about this?
Well, I have chosen not to work for companies that participate in such genocides, which is not a completely vacuous statement because they have sent me recruitment emails to design their fucking missiles! But frankly, I am fighting my own battles right now. I am desperately trying to find work. I am constantly fighting insurers to pay for the few times I ever muster up the courage to use my insurance. I am fighting my own goddamn family who will throw me to the fucking wolves if I can't afford the rent. I am fighting the urge to walk off into the woods and fucking die of embarrassment at having accomplished so little at my age.
So no, I'm not really doing anything. I'll cop to that. I've copped to worse, and at least for now I can live with being a hypocrite. Sorry if that's unsatisfactory.
Are you feeling unsettled? How do you feel about all this mess?
I fucking HATE America, I fucking HATE world governments, and this just adds to the list of reasons why. Unsettled doesn't even begin to cover it.
I desire the end of America and indeed all capitalist states, ideally before they slide even further into fascism in the near future. Death to the Israeli state, and death to any states that support it.
Americans are the biggest donors, but Britain, Germany, and to a lesser extent Australia and Canada, and a handful of non-German EU countries also give Israel a lot of money.
and supported by taxpayers money;
nah our national taxes don't pay for anything, a sovereign government prints fiat money before anyone pays any tax and part of what gives that money any real value is that it's accepted as payment for debts owed to that sovereign.
They print money for the government budget but that massively inflates the money supply so to counterbalance that inflation, they destroy all the money that was paid in taxes by their citizens
Taxpayer money funding government budget is fairly accurate
Taxpayer money funding government budget is fairly accurate
you can print money up to the natural resource+ labor output of a nation-state and nobody is printing that much money.
where did the 20,000 per person per year for all those years the US spent on its wars in iraq and afghanistan come from? it wasn't tax revenue.
It wasn't all tax revenue but taxes were definitely necessary for the US economy to not collapse while funding the war machine
Depends on the genocide. For Isreal I'm fine with it because I think anyone would do the same in their position.
Depends on the genocide.
No it literally fucking doesn't. Doesn't matter what happened before or what happens after. Genocide is never justified. Fire hot. Water wet.
Sometimes I feel like people forget that Israel was actually attacked.
Still doesn't justify commiting a genocide
Also please remember that Europe purchased nearly the entirety of products produced by slaves in the Americas.
If there were no European market there would have been little incentive for American slavery.
I guess the slave free northern states also purchased their fair share, but nothing compared to Europe.
Oh yeah, and you know the justification for indigenous peoples being granted their land back because their ancestors used to live there, and they were removed?
That's the exact same situation for Israel. The Jews used to live in Israel until they were kicked out.
Let that complicate your morality.
Since you probably buy stuff made in China like everyone else, you tell us.
What does China have to do with anything?
China meets the manufacturing needs for most of the world, it's economically not realistic to boycott them
That said, we still should boycott them, at least in principle.
If you read the thread, or at least my responses, you would probably made a more conscious effort to answer my question.
It's never just been the US - Israel doesn't just have a whole bunch of enablers... said enablers also back the very idea of a modern-day Israel.
France, the UK, Germany, Australia, Apartheid-era South Africa all played their part in helping with all this - I guess the fact that it's all countries with histories that are deeply entwined with white supremacism, antisemitism and colonialism is purely coincidence, eh?
Did I read this correctly? You just tried to say that Israel's supporters are antisemitic? How'd you connect those two dots?
You just tried to say that Israel’s supporters are antisemitic?
No. I never tried to say it.
I just plain said it - the countries that enable Israel is as antisemitic and white supremacist as they have always been. They've been hiding it since WW2 - but, as the resurgence of mask-off far-right ideology in the US and Europe proves, it's still the same old west.
The west's support for Israel has always been antisemitic - dumping European Jewish people in Palestine was literally one the Nazi's potential solutions to the "Jewish Question". It's no secret - just mundane history that westerners doesn't like talking about.
Christian Zionism predates Jewish Zionism - the whole reason these white supremacist and antisemitic societies fantasized about a modern-day "Israel" was simply because they did not believe Jewish people belonged in their precious "white" societies.
You don't have to think about it for very long to see it for yourself - who were the people that made it so difficult for Jewish people to "belong" in western societies? If the US was so friendly and welcoming to Jewish people as the US wants to pretend it is (prominent Jewish people like Steven Spielberg and Noam Chomsky will happily tell you about US-style antisemitism), why would Jewish people need a "homeland" in the middle-east?
No. I never tried to say it. I just plain said it…
I’d like to point out to folks that whatever your stance on the issue may be, this statement (taken by itself) is pretty funny.
Please excuse the interruption and continue.
Germany is bound to support them no matter what. I understand why but there should be some conditions. It’s a sensitive subject here.
Beyond that I don’t really understand this conflict enough to have an objective opinion.
I fell like most people have very little idea whats going on. The conflict is extremely complicated.
The conflict is extremely complicated.
It really isn't. It's just pro-Israeli propaganda pretending it's complicated.
Israel is retaliating against civilians for an attack carried out by Hamas. This is what America did in Afghanistan after the attack on the world trade center in 2001. It was dumb and it's dumb now.
I’d call it “retaliating” against civilians. Actual retaliation would mean hitting the set of people who attacked Israel.
IMO a big source of the problem is that we’re conflating four groups for two groups.
Government A, People A, Government B, People B.
Any time Government A attacks People B, Government B “retaliates” against People A, and vice versa. It’s not actual retaliation it’s forwarding the violence to someone new.
There are tenuous connections between these governments and these peoples, but it’s not like slapping the guy who just slapped you. It’s like slapping his kid.
That's my emotional understanding of the current situation. I supported the invasion of Afghanistan whole-heartedly the night it happened, but I was a child then. 9/11 was upsetting and rockets are exciting. Now, with maturity and hindsight, that invasion was a cruel mistake. I believe this current invasion is also a mistake.
What I see critical about it is that they don't realy give a fuck about civilians. They don't target them, but if there a chance to hurt Hamas they don't realy care that much. Still I realy don't like the people who are just screaming at you everything bad. I don't feel remotely qualified to talk specifics about that topic and most people I hear talking about it, especially in the internet are deffenetly not qualified either.
I think most people are qualified to say that killing is bad regardless of the reasons or intent. If the goal of Israel is to put a stop to Hamas attacks then they certainly aren't going to get there by killing random Palestinians regardless. That is only going to create more people who hate Israel in the long run.
Leading question.
Edit: For an actual "answer", some people are in fact taking it to the streets. For your favorite country you can search for it and if you don't want to do that here's an article for the US. While you may argue that we should've expected this, at the time of financing all we know is that there was a first strike and people were angry. Now it's different, at least in my local circle.
Either way, this should not be a question for asklemmy. It should be in the politics community or something.
Loaded question.
rhetorical “question”
If you were in power in Israel, and care for its citizens, what would your steps be as reaction to what happened? Please imagine both short and long term consequences.
and care for its citizens,
If the Israeli government cared about the people it (supposedly) represents it wouldn't be turning them into violent colonialist goons to do the west's bidding in the middle-east, would it?
You might just as well ask how to fix the Apartheid-regime without upsetting white people or fix the Nazi regime without discomforting Nazis.
Ending the illegal occupation of Gaza and the West Bank would be a good start
In the US, speaking the truth about the Israel-Palestine ::cough::Palestinian genocide::cough:: war will get you cancelled by AIPAC astroturfers and useful idiots who just cancel who they’re told to cancel. That’s how they (the AIPAC, the military industrial complex, and AIPAC-run film industry..if you don’t believe me, why was Harvey Weinstein so friendly with ex-Mossad agents that he was able to use them against his opponents?) manufacture consent among normal people these days.
Additionally, 35 US states have anti-bds laws on the books punishing US citizens that choose not to buy products from Israel. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws In many of those US states you can be fired from government jobs for refusing to buy Israeli products in your own personal life.
My country burns money, resources and human lives to enforce its hegemony on the other side of the planet while I only have health insurance through my crappy job and the infrastructure is crumbling everywhere. How do you think I feel?
Not too hot, I guess. Thanks for taking the time.
Many are just trying to make the best out of what we have and it often feels like we have such little impact on these things happening across the country, let along in other parts of the world. The world population approaches 8 billion. Our impact is often meaningful in some way, but incredibly limited overall.
How can someone truly help with something across the world, like Ukraine/Russia and now Israel/Gaza, when conflict is constant and many also have to simply survive, in the face of entities that are capable of spending trillions of dollars.
I don't mean to derail the conversation, but it pains me to say that Europeans have been financing the ethnic cleansing of Artsakh by buying Azerbaijani oil with almost no repercussion.