this post was submitted on 07 Mar 2024

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486

Brainfuck is the sixth circle (lemmy.world)

submitted 8 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

59 comments fedilink hide all child comments

More details in the compete post: https://www.tumblr.com/lavenderhorns/705277666010464256/every-now-and-then-i-remember-that-malbolge-exists?source=share

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago

honesty I never understood why people consider malbolge so bad . sure its difficult AF to do anything in and the complexity gets quite higher still , but IMHO its just to abstract to be painful , it feels to different to feel like something you should be able to understand .

honesty struggling to write simple operations in some of my own esolangs was way more mind-bendingly horrid than I think malbolge could be without making a compiler to it , while still feeling like I was programming .

to be fair I also made ArrayFuck so yeah

[–] [email protected] 7 points 8 months ago

Looks interesting. Except for the fact that an instruction is modified after execution, this is quite simple in the end. Unless I missed something. But yeah, self-modifying instructions makes loops really hard.

[–] [email protected] 52 points 8 months ago

Despite this design, it is possible to write useful programs.

Interestingly, this applies to C++ too.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago (2 children)

"counter-intuitive crazy operation" meh, we already have that, it is called Haskell.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Haskell is abstract, and very different from other popular languages, but I actually find it very intuitive. At the very least, the type system makes it extremely predictable.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

I didn't imagine a joke would attract this many people defending Haskell. LOL.

I personally would say I hate Haskell the least among most of the PL I know, maybe except ocaml. Haskell is probably the second if not the most popular programming language (not including proof assistant) in my field, next to Ocaml; and I have been teaching it for couple years. My work is also heavily involved with category theory, so I don't personally mind the category theory jargon.

But all of these doesn't mean Haskell is without its flaws. For this post in particular, I am referring to one of the long standing debate in the haskell community of whether Haskell user and developer has a tendency to overuse exotic infix operators: https://wiki.haskell.org/Haskell_programming_tips/Discussion#Use_syntactic_sugar_wisely

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Haha, an actual category theorist! You should have gone with "we have more than one of those in Haskell" or something, then. As it is, it really just reads like someone who thinks higher-order functions are too hard of a concept, and that the whole language is therefore garbage.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

welp, karma is not a thing here, nor do I care about them. It is great to see people loving haskell, it is a decent language <3.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Haskell's crazy operation is intuitive though. Assuming you're talking about >>=, it's just a generalized flatMap.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

This is probably a rather controversial topic in the haskell community. Haskell library and base has a tendency to provide “too many“ infix operator (at least IMO), many of which makes code hard to read for beginners and experts alike.

See the discussion here: https://wiki.haskell.org/Haskell_programming_tips/Discussion#Use_syntactic_sugar_wisely

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

As a professional Haskell developer, I tend to agree. I loathe any and all lens code I find using a ton of operators (though I just dislike lenses in general). Operators from base are generally fine, but for the rest, just use normal functions damnit. Operators suck for code navigation too.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago

Yeah, it is one of the problem I have about Haskell.

The other two are lazy evaluation makes print debugging almost impossible, you will need to print the entire environment to figure out where you are.

Finally, I feel like List.fold, state monad, lens are basically just working with mutable structure with extra steps. Although this constructs prevent newbies who are not principled enough to effectively use mutable structure from using mutable structure, but it also doesn't help experienced user to write more effective and clean code.

Mutuabilty are certainly not harmless either. For example in ocaml, if you construct the IntSet type twice, they will be two completely different type. But this behavior can be pretty easily avoided by an experienced user.

What do you feel about these features/shortcomings?

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