there are no good Marxist instances
this post was submitted on 22 Nov 2023
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Karl Marx had some great ideas. It's too bad everyone who identifies as a Marxist has such a twisted worldview.
Please don't speak of Marxism without understanding it
Lemmygrad isn't "hated" by most of the wider lemmyverse. There's just a loud and obnoxious minority of people that will rail and rant about lemmygrad. They loudly rant about lemmygrad because they aren't used to seeing their worldview get challenged and by its very nature as a radical leftist community, lemmygrad is a challenge to the typical background liberal perspective.
It's no surprise we all end up seeing a lot of threads about "those mean tankies at lemmygrad" (and hexbear too) made by people who can't take their worldview getting questioned, or even shown to be flawed, or just not standing up to their own scrutiny, and who get mad when that happens. There are also of course people with ideological reasons to demonize leftwing politics and will spread shit for that reason alone. But overall, I don't think most people care enough except to think "oh yeah that's that instance with those radical lefties, they're weird but they do make some great memes sometimes."
I'm pretty left/lean socialist. The tankies that annoy me from those instances are pro authoritarian communists who say shit like "Stalin did nothing wrong" with no irony whatsoever. It's not really about bickering over ideological purity past a certain point, some of that shit makes a good case for the horseshoe theory
What's a leftist stance you take?
"I'm as left as they come but I'm still going to throat the entire State Department patent leather shoe talm bout 'authoritarians' like that's anything more than another white-folk-slur for brown leaders who deny them" you are a fucking joke
There are people who called the main lemmy.ml instance a community of tankies, so I'd take a lot of these claims with a grain of salt.
There's a difference between challenging other people's opinions and calling them fascists or Nazis just because they're not at the extreme left.
Even worse, in this very thread I've been called a fascist for the sole reason that my instance is sh.itjust.works, one of the bigger instances and one where your political opinion isn't a criteria to subscribe (especially not when I subscribed, they didn't even ask for an email!)
I wouldn't be a fan of a nazi or islamist instance either. One for communists is hardly any different as far I'm concerned. They're all groups of extremists that I don't want anything to do with. Just look at the modlog of this instance for example. Exhibit B is the fact that this message will get deleted in couple hours and I'll likely be banned.
'American Liberal' is more extreme than any of the above
Just to clarify, you believe "American Liberal" is more extreme than Nazis?
Do we want to count the number of genocides Americans have supported since just 1900, compared to the Nazis only pulling one? 'Cause I've got the Americans responsible for the genocide of every indigenous tribe that originally held their land, the ongoing genocide of the Black community, genocide of the Mexicans that attempt to cross into the country while Biden's atomization and sexual assault camps are still open on the border, genocide of the Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts, and genocide of the Palestinians-- so I'm definitely going to hedge my chips on the Americans being worse.
As it is, Hitler lifted his concepts of Lebensraum and Aryan purity from Manifest Destiny and Jim Crow Codes in the first place, so... Yeah, motherfuck America and motherfuck her vassals. Typical crackers taking offense at their crimes being listed off to them, though; why am I surprised? There's no singular people in the world with less a sense of culpability or shame than Americans, other than maybe the Brits or the French-- both of whom have been vassalized by America in the first place.
The Nazis did multiple genocides by almost any definition, though obviously they could never aspire to the body count of America or Britain.
I figured since the manifold genocides all happened around the same time as part of the same policy, it'd all be lumped into one; that's my b-- but you are still correct in that the body count is absolutely dwarfed by what the American Empire's gotten up to.
Where do you think Hitler got the infulence to use the gas chambers?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_Bath_riots
America has sucsesfully carried out multiple genocides, as recently as a decade ago.
The Nazis failed, America didnt.
The article you linked is about brutal mistreatment and forced "disinfection" of people crossing a border. As horible as that is, do you truly believe that is the same scale of evil as systematic genocide?
I'm not American and that article doesn't mention liberalism, so I'd appreciate it if you highlight the connection there too.
The article you linked is about brutal mistreatment and forced “disinfection” of people crossing a border. As horible as that is, do you truly believe that is the same scale of evil as systematic genocide?
I highlighted the part relevant in the reply above, to further explain America invented the gas chamber as a way to 'medicalize' executions and attempt to make them more 'humane'. Hitler was inspired by this 'scientific' approach to executions that he replicated the design while carrying out his holocaust by using higher concentrations of Zyklon B, which in low doses acts as a disinfectant, and in high doses kills.
In regards to actual genocides though, Id point to the Korean War (they wanted to drop a nuke on Korea, even in South Korea american troops slaughtered 300,000+ civillians and then installed a military dictatorship) gulf war (2 million civallians dead) and Vietnam (Free fire zones, agent orange) as examples of genocides carried out last century/recently, and then obviously the founding genocide of the Native American population.
Also I would say that given America has the highest prison population, in the history of mankind; of which are mostly political prisoners arrested on drug charges, or as a consequence of the drug war (a political war), the ongoing genocide of black americans is yet to be resolved.
Liberals hate communists more than they hate fascists
Liberals don't even really hate fascists, they just pretend to condemn them to keep up international appearances; as the past year's slippage, then shameless tearing-off of the mask has shown us. No one should be surprised by this, either-- the American way has always been clad in a pointy white robe, clutching a rifle in white-knuckled hands; if you peel back all the mythologizing.
Lemmygrad and Hexbear aren’t “leftist” in the confused sense that Americans usually mean “leftist.” They’re actually leftist in the original sense, meaning that they want to abolish private ownership of the means of production. To the extent they’re “widely hated,” it’s largely because the Anglosphere has been indoctrinated against real, actual socialism their entire lives.
That's not the part people have an issue with, the part where their users deny genocides, call everyone that has a less extreme left opinion of politics Nazis, end up being so "anti-racism" that they're racists themselves and take all critics as personal attacks, that's what people have an issue with.
Wild how much footage is coming out of Gaza right now showing an actual ongoing genocide, yet Zionists and their water-carriers will harp on and on about how Israel is merely defending itself.
Nothing of the sort from Xinjiang. At all.
I'd like to see ONE verifiable image or video depicting this supposed Uyghur genocide we're denying. ONE. Apparently it's one of the worst human atrocities occuring right now. One of the worst in HISTORY.
So... show me a single picture. Fetish porn doesn't count. Where are the dead bodies? Where are these supposed mass graves?
Love to break it to ya, they don't fucking exist and they never did. You've been lied to.
The US state department lawyers and the British House of Lords have evidence. That's why they're pursuing convictions of the Chinese leaders involved. No, wait— sorry, I misremembered. They both concluded there is insufficient evidence.
So you agree that there is a strong argument for Russia seeking genocide in Ukraine as well, right?
Israel has killed more civilians (mostly children and women) in a month of war than Russia has killed in almost two years. The Russians actually target almost exclusively military infrastructure, they have preserved electrical grids, water stations, communications infrastructure, etc.. Not because they are "good guys", obviously, but it's a part of their strategy. But it shows genocide is not a part of this strategy.
The article was written by Timofei Sergeitsev, a Russian "philosopher" with no direct link to the government. The article in the website you linked was written in early April 2022, very early after the war, when no one knew what to expect. It was claimed it was "proof" the Russians was intending to genocide Ukrainians.
More than a year later, have we seen anything like it? Have we seen active actions from the Russians to consistently destroy civilian buildings and systematically cause civilian casualties on purpose? I at least haven't, unless we are talking about a completely different war which I'm not aware. I don't excuse the Russians of anything, I'm sticking with the facts. The Russians have been very careful not to cause non-military casualties, which is extremely odd for a genocidal regime.
So, in short, it's your article written by a guy with no links to the government vs. what the actual war itself shows in practice. I prefer to see what practice shows us.
Feels like ad hominem. The point is that you are unwilling to even engage with the idea that Russia seeks to eliminate Ukrainian identity, an idea which is reported by a number of primary Russian sources in a variety of media. Putin himself expresses frequent open skepticism of Ukrainian nationality. Not to even mention the internationally recognized mass deportation of children.
I won't argue that Israel isn't an apartheid state engaging in collective punishment. Meanwhile you will turn yourself in circles to defend Russian aggression, and for the life of me I can figure out what that has to do with liberating workers. It just feels less like intellectual honesty and more like campism. But then somehow I'm the brainwashed goon for actually attempting to maintain something resembling ideological consistency.
The point is that you are unwilling to even engage with the idea that Russia seeks to eliminate Ukrainian identity
Is that like a litmus test? Next time I'm ordering pizza I'll ask the restaurant if they are willing to engage with the idea that Russia seeks to eliminate Ukrainian identity.
Literally no idea why you brought that up again lol
unwilling to even engage with the idea that Russia seeks to eliminate Ukrainian identity
Camarada Forte did engage with this argument. The person who created this supposed dossier dictating Russia's desire to destroy the Ukrainian identity has no direct link to the Russian government.
You need evidence we can engage with. We cannot meaningfully engage with empty platitudes.
Meanwhile you will turn yourself in circles to defend Russian aggression
Do you know what was going on in eastern Ukraine, beginning in 2014? Pretty similar to what's going on in Gaza right now. Hint: it was not Russian artillery leveling homes, schools, and hospitals.
But then somehow I’m the brainwashed goon for actually attempting to maintain something resembling ideological consistency.
Awfully defensive there, bud. Speaking of ad hominem. 🙄
their users deny genocides
If you are referring to the Xinjiang issue, then it just reaffirms what @[email protected] just said:
it’s largely because the Anglosphere has been indoctrinated against real, actual socialism their entire lives
Because the "Uyghur genocide" in Xinjiang is another example of propaganda. Or do you really think the West cares about Muslims and want to protect their "freedom"?
call everyone that has a less extreme left opinion of politics Nazis
I don't see anyone in Lemmygrad calling other people "Nazis" because they disagree with someone in a discussion. I usually see them criticizing others as "liberals." This is either a misrepresentation of leftists in general, very common among conservatives, or you are frequently being called a Nazi. I don't know, maybe that's on you? 🤔
end up being so “anti-racism” that they’re racists themselves and take all critics as personal attacks
That's so specific you should give at least one example of this. We have very strict moderation against any bigotry, so I challenge you to link any "racist" attitude or comment you have seen in Lemmygrad. I will give you 24 hours, and if you don't reply with an example, I will edit this comment saying you chickened out.
EDIT: They chickened out, as expected.
The “Uyghur genocide” is bullshit Atlanticist propaganda, and English-language Wikipedia is basically NATOpedia in its slant on the topic, so yes we will deny it. It’s a product of the new Cold War propaganda campaign against China.
Atlanticist crackers are exactly why I'm a third-worldist; I genuinely care more about my community's diaspora than I'd ever care about these genocidal neocolonist crackers
Here are some properties of any conspiracy theory worth it’s name:
- Closed Ideological Systems: They provide an all-encompassing explanation for various events or states, with everything fitting into their worldview.
- Immunity to Facts: Any contrary evidence is dismissed as false or considered part of the conspiracy.
- Enemy Construction: They tend to draw a clear line between "us" (those who "know the truth") and "them" (the supposed conspirators).
- Adaptability: Conspiracy narratives can change and incorporate new "evidence" or events to maintain their credibility.
It matches for QAnon and the MAGA crowd as well as the lemmygrad crowd.
How ironic! Let's see if it fits for the "genocide" position:
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Closed Ideological Systems: Whether those who defend the idea of "genocide" in Xinjiang are aware or not, the sources used to claim there is a genocide in Xinjiang is usually Adrian Zenz, a German white supremacist and Christian fundamentalist who claimed in his book Worthy to Escape that "other belief systems are ultimately inspired by Satan” and justifies “eternal punishment" for those who refuse to believe in Jesus.
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Immunity to Facts: Every time one tries to argue that Xinjiang faced a policy of de-radicalization of terrorists who led many attacks against the province, those who claim there is a genocide there say they are "genocide deniers." I've even seen people saying those who don't agree with the "genocide" position are paid by the Chinese.
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Enemy Construction: I can't even count the number of times people have called those who don't promote the "genocide" propaganda "tankies" and dismissing them instead of engaging with arguments.
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Adaptability: The "genocide" propaganda claims there is a genocide there, and then when presented with the fact that even those who were put in the re-education facilities were allowed to express their culture with dances and art on video, the "genocide" conspiracy theorists say that it was a fake, an act, that it was a spectacle organized by the Chinese to hide the genocide. Just to give you an example.
It does match the "genocide" position very well. I've yet to see a genocide which preserves the language, the culture, the customs and the places of worship of a people. Another thing, notice the reaction of Muslim countries to the actual genocide being perpetrated by Israel. They are firmly condemning it through all channels. In contrast, the policies of de-radicalization by the Chinese were unanimously well-received by Muslim countries.
Another thing, notice the reaction of Muslim countries to the actual genocide being perpetrated by Israel. They are firmly condemning it through all channels. In contrast, the policies of de-radicalization by the Chinese were unanimously well-received by Muslim countries.
Very generous of you to assume that many of these folk believe Muslims and Arabs are human beings capable of forming their own opinions and international policy. The opinions of actual Muslims are similarly handwaved akin to any communist's opinion.
These states' international defense of China's de-radicalization program is stated to merely be because they are money-hungry opportunists, buddying up with China while ignoring a politically and economically inconvenient genocide. 🙄 How... adaptable this narrative is.
The seemingly unending wave of videos of Uyghurs in China recording themselves in their homes and making it clear they are not undergoing genocide have to be ignored. In fact, they have to be deleted by the platforms hosting them. How utterly immune to facts this narrative is.
If these countries care about Palestine, oh... I don't know. Russia is making them care. Iran, maybe? Maybe North Korea or China are forcing these Muslims to hate Israel. Who else are we being directed to hate right now? Afghanistan? Just throw a dart at the "Axis of Evil" board and pick an "uncivilized" nation. It's their fault. Why not?
not having the self awareness to realize this applies to anti-communists, not communists/MLs as they use scientific reasoning.
Just to understand what you are saying, do you say communists apply scientific reasoning?
Yes, the foundation of most communists reasoning is based on sociology.
That's very abstract and doesn't mean much. With as many words you can say capitalism is based on scientific reasoning.
Its not abstract at all, 'Marxism' is an entire field in sociology and is recongised + fundemental to understanding sociology.
Marx was the third ever sociologist, the first being Weber and the second I always forget his name. But this is historically attested to, it's not something I just pulled out of my ass lol
More often than not, when Americans say leftist they really mean left-liberalism a la Bernie Sanders, which is really center-left at most, and not actually leftist in the original sense, a sense which Americans have forgotten thanks to two Red Scares and the first Cold War.
True, but leninists are not leftist in any significant sense either. They are more authoritarian/ totalitarian than they are left or right.