this post was submitted on 25 Feb 2025

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634

Framework’s first desktop is a strange—but unique—mini ITX gaming PC (arstechnica.com)

submitted 1 month ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago

To anyone complaining about non-replaceable RAM: This machine is for AI, that is why.

Think of it like a GPU wirh a CPU on the side, vs the other way around.

Inference requires very fast ram transfer speed, and that is only possible (currently) on soldered buses. Even this is pretty slow at 256Gb/s, but it's RAM size of 96GB to GPU makes it interesting for larger models.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

I don't get the point. Framework laptops are interesting because they are modular but for desktop PCs that's the default. And Framework's PCs are less modular than a standard PC because the RAM is soldered

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 weeks ago

That makes no sense - that’s more like Apple then…

I don’t know if it’s the case, but modular IO on PC maybe nice.

[+] [email protected] -17 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Looks like a pile of shit for easily-impressionable morons, but that's to be expected from framework.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

What exactly do you want instead?

[–] [email protected] -1 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Great products for great prices!

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Like what, specifically, instead of this?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Lol. Are you nuts? Am I really supposed to sit here and list off what makes a great product for a great price?

Let's be real. You don't like how I criticized how people like you are getting taken for a ride so you're desperate to make it seem like it's not true.

The sooner you realize how you're being taken advantage of, the sooner you can start to do something about it.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

Am I really supposed to sit here and list off what makes a great product for a great price?

I don't understand what you are asking for.

You don't have to be extensive, but... what would you want instead? A more traditional Mini PC? A dGPU instead? A different size laptop? Like, if you could actually tell Framework what you want, in brief, what would you say?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

Fair enough.

I skimmed it for a few seconds, got a little bit ill at the $1100 starting price, and then it occurred to me: what is this for?

Wasn't framework's whole thing about making modular laptops? What value are they bringing to the mini-ITX market? They're already modular. In fact, it looks like they're taking away customizability with soldered RAM.

You asked me what I want, and this is definitely what I don't want. If they wanted to make this product appealing to me, they'd have to lower the price and live more modest lifestyles with the more modest profit margins.

Edit: After closer inspection (albeit, not that close so I may have missed something) it looks like this... thing doesn't even have a dedicated GPU. Yeah, framework can suck my fucking balls lol.

You can literally get a 4070 gaming laptop these days for ~$1000 and framework is trying to push this shit? They can fuck off so hard it's not even funny. This is why the free world never has enough to go around, because we waste our excess on dumb shit like this.

Here's a gaming laptop with a 4070 and a 144hz screen for $900 at Walmart:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Lenovo-LOQ-15-6-FHD-144Hz-Gaming-Notebook-Ryzen-7-7435HS-16GB-RAM-512GB-SSD-NVIDIA-GeForce-RTX-4070-Luna-Grey-Octa-Core-Display-Ram/13376108763

Fuck framework.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

This is ostensibly more of a workstation/dev thing. The integrated GPU is more or less like a very power efficient laptop 4070/4080 with unlimited VRAM, depending on which APU you pick, and the CPU is very fast, with desktop Ryzen CCDs but double the memory bandwidth of what even an 9800 X3D has. In that sense, it’s a steal compared to Nvidia DIGITs or an Apple M4 Max, and Mini PC makers alternatives haven’t really solidified yet.

I think Framework knows they can’t compete with a $900 Walmart laptop and the crazy bulk pricing/corner cutting they do, nor can they price/engineer things (with the same bulk discounts) at the higher end like a ROG Z13/G14.

So… this kinda makes sense to me. They filled a gap where OEMs are enshittifying things, which feels very framework to me.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

The integrated GPU is more or less like a very power efficient laptop 4070/4080 with unlimited VRAM

I'd love to see some benchmarks comparing the two. I don't believe that this integrated GPU is able to hold a candle to a laptop's 4070, but I'd love to be proven wrong. It also looks, per the words of the article, the CPU with performance comparable to a "mid-range" laptop GPU (think xx60s) will cost $2000. Literally paying OVER TWICE the fucking price as a laptop with a 4070. AND LAPTOPS COME WITH SCREENS! This is a complete scam.

As far as CPU speed goes, couldn't people simply choose whatever CPU they want when building their computer without paying the "framework tax"? Are you trying to claim there's something "special" about this CPU like the PS3's cell processor?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

Are you trying to claim there’s something “special” about this CPU like the PS3’s cell processor?

There is. It’s a 16-core desktop CPU kinda like Ryzen, but hooked up to an IO die with very fast (8533MHz) quad channel memory. It’s more like a small, power efficient threadripper CPU, if you want to look at it that way, and that is a $2K+ platform.

But that IO die has a 40 CU GPU (compared to 12 CUs for the previous highest end IGP, or 8 for the Steam Deck), so yeah, somewhere in the ballpark of a 4070, or (to be more accurate than my previous guess) the 4060 at the lower end of SKUs.

But the real appeal isn’t “magic”: its like an Apple M Pro or Mac, a decent GPU hooked up to a huge pool of reasonably fast VRAM without having to pay freaking $4000+ for a Quadro or A100. Workstation people are going crazy over this thing.

I’d buy it at the drop of a hat for workstation stuff. I also have some friends who want one as a home server, since it’s so powerful but power efficient, and more modular/repairable than some Chinese mini PC.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

For $2000, you and your friends could be getting better hardware.

I'm sorry, this is a product for suckers. Anyone who buys this has more money than sense. It's just a fact of life.

It's okay if you don't realize this now, but hopefully one day you will. It's alright to be wrong and taken for a ride. We've all been there, including me. It's part of why I'm so keen on identifying bullshit like this now; I've seen it before and will continue to see it again.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

I’m sorry, this is a product for suckers. Anyone who buys this has more money than sense. It’s just a fact of life.

There’s literally no better hardware. If I want 48Gb+ vram for $2000, it’s literally a bank of ancient, power sucking Tesla P40s or this… there’s nothing else because Nvidia/AMD price gouge everything else. Heck, the used 24GB 3090 I bought has skyrocketed in price. I’d still be paying l$1500+ for a bare minimum 3090 system now.

I’d love to be wrong, but the GPU market is totally fucked.

GPU aside, it’s the same for those that want a really fast transcoder box or whatever.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

You're deluding yourself into thinking this iGPU is more powerful than it actually is.

Have you seen benchmarks comparing it to some of the competition?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

Honestly I don’t even care if it’s half as fast as a 4070, that’s fast enough for me.

In workstation workloads, some stuff just will not run unless you have a ton of VRAM, and running slower is fine. Or in other cases, you get a gigantic speedup from the virtue of simply having tons of VRAM. That’s the value, not pure core speed compared to some 8GB GPU.

But I am not deluding myself, the core performance is in the ballpark of a laptop 7700S: https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Radeon-RX-8060S-Benchmarks-and-Specs.942049.0.html

It’s also (on paper) slower than my desktop 3090, but in practice, an order of magnitude faster for stuff that struggles to fit on the 3090.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Honestly I don’t even care if it’s half as fast as a 4070, that’s fast enough for me.

You're the one who's trying to argue its power, and then when presented with a better option you say "it's fast enough for me."

Have you seen benchmarks comparing the performance of this iGPU to dGPUs?

Please share.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

See the notebookcheck page above.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

What benchmarks are you seeing that are telling you this is a better deal than the alternatives?

Come on, you can be specific so I don't have to assume what you're talking about.

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