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submitted 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

One time it wasn't a bigot, but an old guy taking creepshots of college girls on the light rail

Edit: If you're going to argue against my meme, then why don't you tell me what you expect me to do when I see someone hurling epithets and slurs against brown people or trans people, or homophobes calling me a "faggot" and spitting at me? Just sit there on my hands like a useless log?

And moreover, if you've come here from other instances for the sole purpose of calling me names, I'm going to report that shit and message your instance admins. There is NOTHING about my post or comments that is attacking or insulting anyone, unless you're a creep or a bigot.

I'm not going to sit idly by while others cause harm.

Remember to always stand up for what's right. Ignore the ignorant people who tell you not to. They're part of the problem.

This is an essential part of mutual aid

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[-] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago

Locking this thread. I have sent a strongly worded DM to OP.

[-] [email protected] 30 points 1 month ago

Ah yes, mob justice. That always goes really well and innocent people are never hurt.

[-] [email protected] 21 points 1 month ago

Ah yes, calling the police always works out well for everyone

[-] [email protected] 26 points 1 month ago

Ok but are you also willing to accept a group of white Christians forcing a Muslim off the bus?

[-] [email protected] 15 points 1 month ago

Are you willing to accept the police shooting a black man holding an innocuous item?

[-] [email protected] 19 points 1 month ago

The meme is talking about forcing bigots off the bus. This is the opposite of what the meme is about lol

So to answer your question: Of course not

"bUt ThAt'S wHaT yOuRe SaYiNg ThAt MoB jUsTiCe Is GoOd"

Nope, not saying that at all. I'm saying we need to use direct action against bigotry and other forms of injustice. What we don't need to do is create new injustices.

This is literally "punching Nazis is bad" logic. "Logic."

[-] [email protected] 26 points 1 month ago

Your logic is that we don't need police because mob justice will take care of it. Which group is more prone to mob justice, I wonder?

[-] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago

I think you're confusing approved and appropriate.

Kicking a bigot or a creep off a train is appropriate, if even it's not done by an official, approved authority figure.

Support for that doesn't mean supporting behavior that is unapproved and inappropriate, like religious persecution.

Relying only on action from approved authorities doesn't make it any more likely that the actions taken will be appropriate. As the police show us daily.

[-] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago

Neither!

It's a tie, because humans are humans!

[-] [email protected] 13 points 1 month ago

This is not my message. This is a very ungracious and bad-faith reading of my meme, and it's not at all the situation I've described. The situation in question involves people who seek to cause harm.

[-] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago

Ok but it assumes that the rest of the people on the bus are reasonable which is correct in this case but is a bad assumption to make.

[-] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago

No, it doesn't.

Imagine if I post a picture of a BLM protest, saying I support it, and you reply by telling me if I support this protest, then I must also support white nationalist protests as well.

That's what you're doing here, and it's quite baffling that you can't seem to grasp this.

I believe in taking direct action against things that are harmful and oppressive, such as bigots. That's ... not really a controversial statement to make. It's like saying we should punch Nazis. "Aha but now you need to punch everyone!" Uhhh ... no. This leap you've made is quite irreconcilable with what I've communicated in my post and comments. It has some real "all lives matter" energy.

[-] [email protected] 7 points 1 month ago

Abolitionist memes? On ml-lemmy?

[-] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago

You're god damn right!

[-] [email protected] 40 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

While I'm a big fan of community action against bigotry and fascism (cable street based), I still don't have it clear in my head about how best to structure society to protect those without power. If you have a police force then inevitably it's going to serve the needs of the wealthy; if you don't then community justice is often also likely to favour those with more power.

[-] [email protected] 7 points 1 month ago

I don't think that the last part is true. Community justice (even) in our broken society doesn't really favor the powerful. The gut reaction I see is to help the underdog in a situation, not the oppressor. Sometimes an individual read of a situation can be complicated, leading to mistaken outcomes, but the intent is to end the negative situation.

Tangentially that makes me think about the difference in intent. A group of people expelling a bigot from a train is that group trying to fix a bad situation, let the oppressed person know they are not alone, and to let the oppressor know that are not welcome there with that behavior. The police may also kick someone off the train but their actions are punative, they exist to enforce a heiarchy and punish, they aren't there to help the oppressed feel like they aren't alone, and they are only letting the oppressor know that they aren't welcome there, but as long as the cops aren't nearby it's ok.

As for structuring a more just society, we could imagine one without the implicit power imbalances, one without an arbitrary heiarchy of authority figures dictating right vs wrong. I know it sounds like I'm describing anarchy (I am) but also kinda a democracy? Like everyone gets a say to make decisions, and a group of equals decide together how to live their lives. Breaking down our current heiarchies to get there is the hard part, obviously, and I think it's a generations long societal struggle. Hopefully we all live more justly than our parents until we arrive somewhere better than where we left.

Sorry this was very stream of conciousness, I hope my thoughts came across somewhat effectively.

[-] [email protected] 7 points 1 month ago

Thank you. You are so much more articulate than I am! From my pov, I'd compare it to protest. The act of protest is itself neutral. If a group protests in favor of a white nationalist ethnostate, then I think you'd agree that would be bad; but if a group protests seeking justice and equity, we'd consider that good, and rightfully so.

If I made a post supporting a BLM or anti-ICE protest, I doubt anyone would claim that I then must open the doors to a white nationalist protest and tolerate it.

Same with this -- if people are taking action against hate, then I support that. This does not mean that we should support or tolerate oppression of marginalized groups, in fact it hurts my head trying to think of why anyone would have such a reaction -- except I suppose we are quite heavily propagandized to believe that agencies like the police are the "good guys."

And yeah, when I've seen this happen, it's always been for the good. In my experience, most people will do the right thing when they witness an injustice.

Also, I like what you said about anarchism and democracy. In fact, I often think anarchism is the most democratic system, in many ways. And in my experience, it's even preferable to democracy in that anarchist communities tend to find ways to prevent a tyranny of the majority. For instance, it would not be acceptable to anarchists to imprison and deport immigrants, even if a majority agreed that we should.

I have a hard time expressing myself, and I often think I'm going to be understood, only to get so much backlash. Communicating online really sucks donkey ass, because everyone anticipates that I'm here to cause harm.

[-] [email protected] 10 points 1 month ago

It's not like I have a clear grasp either, and anyone who says they do is being either arrogant or dishonest.

But one thing that comes to mind is diffuse sanctions. Scroll down to the secion on "decisions" -- it's a pretty easy read imo, with lots of examples -- also, I'm just posting this to try to be helpful, not to argue -- peace <3

Also, keep in mind that many of the societal problems we experience may not always be caused by the state and hierarchies, but are certainly greatly exacerbated by them. There will always be those few that seek to cause harm however, and that's why it's important to keep in mind that you can't just let someone like an ax murderer, neoliberal, or others who seek to cause harm and oppress others, continue to do so. There will always be those few who need experience community pushback or even exile. But I think that's something that would happen very rarely, once you've esablished an equitable community based on principles such as horizontality and mutual aid.

I'm trying to parse my own thoughts though, so this is just my thinking so far. There are so many different anarchist theories, that it's hard to be dogmatic about one or another, and probably counter-productive to try.

But back to my meme: Experiencing this at least gives me hope that perhaps given the right circumstances, most people are willing to step up and do the right thing. And like I said, this wasn't just a one-off, but something I've seen happen repeatedly. To be specific, I've seen it happen most often on the light rail between Lake Street and Downtown in Minneapolis.

[-] [email protected] 16 points 1 month ago

Last time I posted this, people were calling me a fascist and supporter of "mob justice" because apparently fascism is when you force racists and homophobes to get off the train using group pressure. I'm not afraid of people like that, and I speak up when I see it.

[-] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago

I get where you're coming from and I want to be on your side, but this can get real tricky depending on the... I guess belief systems that make up the majority of the people on the bus.

I see where your hearts at, and I like it, but even though a lot of them are being assholes about it, some of the people in the thread make a good point. How we feel about 'group pressure' depends a lot on which group is most numerous at the time.

[-] [email protected] 12 points 1 month ago

If punishing bad behavior relies on immediate local consensus, whoever's present gets to decide what constitutes bad behavior. If you are surrounded by bigots - you will not throw them off the bus.

[-] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago

Then I'll die trying.

But once again, that's not what this is about.

[-] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago

It is, though. Your insistence that it's not does not constitute a rebuttal of this criticism.

America has a history of self-organized direct action punishing perceived wrongdoers, sometimes in violent defiance of police and the courts. We just call it lynching.

Minorities in general do not benefit from relying on group dynamics to save their asses... because they're outnumbered. That's what "minority" means.

What a state offers, and what reliance on a state encourages, is a uniform set of behavioral standards beyond 'I'm gonna fistfight a busload of Nazis, wish me luck.' I mean sure, godspeed and aim for throats, but I hope your affairs are in order.

[-] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago

It literally does not though. You are incorrect about all of this! I clearly said that this action I'm describing is against bigots. You're leaning on some "all lives matter" logic here.

If I say punching Nazis is good, then you'd respond by saying I have to punch everyone, which is patently absurd. But clearly you need time to process why.

In the meantime, I intend to continue to stand up for justice and equity, whether you like it or not. As someone who grew up gay in a very hostile community, I feel assured that I'm doing the right thing, because my ass has been saved firsthand by people who aren't status quo-defending cowards.

[-] [email protected] 7 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

We're pointing out Nazis can also punch you.

Jackass.

If you're calling for individual action to be the only thing stopping bigots... then only individual action will stop bigots. Bigots will otherwise be free to do whatever they want. Including doing unto you what you're doing unto them, namely, shoving your ass off the bus because they don't like the look of you. With no state to fall back on for protection or recourse, your choices are to come back with a bigger gang, or walk.

Your moral rationale being better than theirs is not relevant. If you imagine group violence will only be done for good reasons then nobody should ever take you seriously. If you're incapable of figuring out why everyone's telling you this, can you at least take a hint from how everyone keeps telling you this?

[-] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago

Uncivil personal attack. Reported.

[-] [email protected] 7 points 1 month ago

You just called me a coward while shoving a strawman in my mouth. Take a playground insult in stride if you're going to respond to polite explanations by acting this shitty.

[-] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago

I didn't call you a coward. I said the people who stood up for me aren't cowards.

[-] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago

Oh, it's some other status-quo-defending strawmen you're projecting nonsense onto. Because making shit up and going 'nur nur nur, that's what you sound like' is sooo much more civil and constructive than 'here's why you're wrong, butthead.'

Also - bit ironic running for the mods, yeah? In your post about not needing a state? You'll brag about scrapping with actual fascists, outnumbered ten-to-one, but you'll tattle to teacher if someone uses a no-no word. How dare they! All you did was strongly imply they're a morally weak defender of fascism.

Meanwhile. Back at the point: relying on interpersonal violence to guide behavior kinda favors violent assholes. For reasons I really thought were obvious. Nobody's out here saying only the state can guide behavior, but this image you've posted keeps resulting in these conversations that confuse you because you are in fact describing a mob. Focusing on when the mob has good reasons does not change that.

[-] [email protected] 13 points 1 month ago

I remember

You're still a dumbass tho

[-] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago
[-] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago

Grass therapy for you, doctors orders.

[-] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago

Why don't you go stand up for bigots and creeps somewhere else

Also, you're breaking your instance's code of conduct. I haven't attacked you.

[-] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago

Last time you posted this, you got mob-ruled out. This is what you're advocating for, what's the problem? I'd love to have a real discussion about this with you, because we probably agree, it's just that you're preaching rather than arguing. I think you're hurting the cause more than you're helping it, Sir.

[-] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago

Hot take: Oppression and bigotry = bad

Since "mob rule" is a gross misrepresentation of what I'm talking about, I've nothing to say in response

You are an impolite, uncivil status quo defending troll who followed me to this instance after I migrated here with the express goal of escaping this type of unprovoked negativity and harassment

You are welcome to reread my post and comments. They're easily understood.

[-] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago

I would you respect a lot more if you'd just own your opinion instead of pussyfooting around it. It's mob rule, and it can work if you've nurtured a culture with good moral values. I won't give you any more nuggets, but maybe you'd get less pushback in the future if you actually tried to explain your position instead of calling anyone who dares put question marks on your posts a bigot status-quoist.

[-] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago

I don't believe in mob justice though. That's a gross and deliberate mischaracterization of my post.

[-] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago

Then what is it? You haven't explained it at all. You've just been calling everyone a bigot for not agreeing with you.

this post was submitted on 01 Mar 2024
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