this post was submitted on 05 Sep 2023
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Schoolgirls who refused to change out of the loose-fitting robes have been sent home with a letter to parents on secularism.


French public schools have sent dozens of girls home for refusing to remove their abayas – long, loose-fitting robes worn by some Muslim women and girls – on the first day of the school year, according to Education Minister Gabriel Attal.

Defying a ban on the garment seen as a religious symbol, nearly 300 girls showed up on Monday morning wearing abayas, Attal told the BFM broadcaster on Tuesday.

Most agreed to change out of the robe, but 67 refused and were sent home, he said.

The government announced last month it was banning the abaya in schools, saying it broke the rules on secularism in education that have already seen headscarves forbidden on the grounds they constitute a display of religious affiliation.

The move gladdened the political right but the hard left argued it represented an affront to civil liberties.

The 34-year-old minister said the girls refused entry on Monday were given a letter addressed to their families saying that “secularism is not a constraint, it is a liberty”.

If they showed up at school again wearing the gown there would be a “new dialogue”.

He added that he was in favour of trialling school uniforms or a dress code amid the debate over the ban.

Uniforms have not been obligatory in French schools since 1968 but have regularly come back on the political agenda, often pushed by conservative and far-right politicians.

Attal said he would provide a timetable later this year for carrying out a trial run of uniforms with any schools that agree to participate.

“I don’t think that the school uniform is a miracle solution that solves all problems related to harassment, social inequalities or secularism,” he said.

But he added: “We must go through experiments, try things out” in order to promote debate, he said.


‘Worst consequences’

Al Jazeera’s Natacha Butler, reporting from Paris before the ban came into force said Attal deemed the abaya a religious symbol which violates French secularism.

“Since 2004, in France, religious signs and symbols have been banned in schools, including headscarves, kippas and crosses,” she said.

“Gabriel Attal, the education minister, says that no one should walk into a classroom wearing something which could suggest what their religion is.”

On Monday, President Emmanuel Macron defended the controversial measure, saying there was a “minority” in France who “hijack a religion and challenge the republic and secularism”.

He said it leads to the “worst consequences” such as the murder three years ago of teacher Samuel Paty for showing Prophet Muhammad caricatures during a civics education class.

“We cannot act as if the terrorist attack, the murder of Samuel Paty, had not happened,” he said in an interview with the YouTube channel, HugoDecrypte.

An association representing Muslims has filed a motion with the State Council, France’s highest court for complaints against state authorities, for an injunction against the ban on the abaya and the qamis, its equivalent dress for men.

The Action for the Rights of Muslims (ADM) motion is to be examined later on Tuesday.


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[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (6 children)

“Gabriel Attal, the education minister, says that no one should walk into a classroom wearing something which could suggest what their religion is.”

I was initially torn on this, but as long as it's for all religions, I support it. I firmly believe that I shouldn't know your religion unless I ask. Religion is toxic.

I do think you should have the freedom to wear religious signifiers as an adult. I just don't approve. But I don't want to stop you. Children in school? This is the same (to me) as requiring them to leave their phones at home.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

I was initially torn on this, but as long as it's for all religions, I support it.

The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread

Yea they made it so nobody could wear religious cultural clothes but there's only one religion that includes wearing those clothes as a belief.

Would you also support a policy that nobody named @some_guy should be allowed to talk, no matter who they are.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (11 children)

The first is a good argument. And I support breaking that law.

The second is a good argument in that I wasn't factoring the requirement (which I kinda don't care about because I reject religion, so I know that I'm wrong even though I reject religion, fuck religion). Were religion not so toxic, I would have more sympathy. In this case, I'm gonna sound like a real fuckwad, but assimilate.

The third is just silly.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

"Just assimilate to Christian culture, Muslims. I'm anti-religion of all kinds, btw."

You are too caught up in liberal abstraction to allow yourself to understand the material reality.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I'm gonna sound like a real fuckwad, but assimilate.

bruh-moment

can't believe you just said "facing persecution for your religious faith simply don't be a member of the religious minority being persecuted"

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Yea they made it so nobody could wear religious cultural clothes but there's only one religion that includes wearing those clothes as a belief

there are multiple such as Islam and Sikhism to give two examples. This law is just an example of religious persecution against religions that don't fit in with the French idea of which religions a French person should have

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

Your right should have said there's multiple religions it was discriminating against just highlighting how it lines up with Frances history of Islamophobia.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago (4 children)

Racism against children must be one of these "western values" I've been hearing so much about.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

French people will claim that secularism is the most important value in all of France but them half of the national days off are Catholic holidays.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (9 children)

You're mistaken on the definition of racism. This has nothing to do with race and everything to do with how France deals with secularism

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

Oh cool, looking forward to this rehashing of the 2017 era "Islam isn't a race, therefore islamophobia has no connection to racism" rhetoric.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago (2 children)

"You can't be racist against Mexicans because it's a country not a race!"

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago

"You can't be racist against Irish Catholics because it's a religion not a race"

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 years ago

Well, yes. "Hating Mexicans" is not racism. Just like hating the French, Poles, or Americans. It's nationalism, xenophobia, chauvinism etc, but not racism

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

secular means not taking a religious stance and being neutral about it. Being secular would mean letting people wear them as they choose not allowing people to wear religious attire is taking a religious stance and thus isn't secular

rather than secularity this is religious persecution

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (4 children)

What's even the point of this line of argument? At best you prove that this technically isn't racism in the strictest definitional sense but it's still just as harmful to kids and Muslims as racism.

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[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 years ago (3 children)

You're arguing with people from Hexbear. You'd have better luck against a brick wall.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago

Yeah no shit a brick wall will let you say all the dumb shit you want without pushback

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago

Step right up

wall-talk

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Hexbears: Stronger than brick walls.

You heard it here first folks!

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

Do they ban catholic children wearing crosses around their necks?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago

I think a better line is that they have school on Fridays but not on Sundays

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

They do according to the article and what I know

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I'm French and actually he's bang on the money, it's entirely about racism under the bullshit cover of "secularity"

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I'm also French and I don't know, maybe you're right and that's a way to hide the real racist motives. I'm probably biased because I dislike all religions equally though

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I'm an antitheist and, speaking as one, let me request that you pull your head out of whatever it is stuck in. France is notoriously Islamophobic and these are girls who are just wearing loose-fitting clothes because of a religious practice based on modesty. Is either the religion or the practice itself above critique? Certainly not, but forcing people not to do something so harmless is ridiculous religious discrimination.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

Yeah, everything to do with secularism. That's why France has Christian public holidays. And Macron called for closer ties between the state and Catholic church, and said Europe has "Judeo Christian roots". Oh wait...

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Europe doesn't have judeo-christian roots?

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Again, this is not racism. There are white Muslims and black christians everywhere in France

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

Ok it's a slightly different form of bigotry does that make it ok since your only argument seems to be "it's not racism because it doesn't explicitly say it's discriminating against a specific race"

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago

Racism isn't exclusively about skin color you dolt.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Yes, let's exempt them from proper education. That'll solve the problem.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 years ago (4 children)

The fascist way to inclusion!

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

People should be allowed to wear what they want. That said, nobody should voluntarily wear these terrible symbols of sexism and oppression. The literal religious purpose of the abaya and even the hijab is to promote modesty, with the rationale that men can't control themselves and it's women's responsibility to do that for them. Fuck that message and fuck the ideology that it perpetuates.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 years ago

Modesty is not a religious value. Many philosophies promote it.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

This is exactly the problem. If men had to cover their bodies, I wouldnt mind it, but because only women have to cover their bodies, it is sexist.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 years ago

men have to cover their bodies as well, just not as much as women. I think it's unfair to assume gender equality will ever be real because of the amount of difference they both have.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

New criminal offense: Learning while Muslim.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

what's next sikhs can't wear turbans in school

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The law covers that also. All visible religious garments are forbidden.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

ok so straight up religious persecution of multiple groups

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

“Since 2004, in France, religious signs and symbols have been banned in schools, including headscarves, kippas and crosses,”

I agree with it, not in the "hah, we are dunking on minorities" way, but just because I'm personally so sick of religion being a part of every waking moment of life and being used as a cudgel to influence public policy, media, and what choices people can make when it comes to important personal choices, such as healthcare. Of course, this is being viewed through my American lens, but we've seen similar erosions in public institutions due to so-called "religious rights" despite being a secular country. While France's version is fairly blunt, it seeks to normalize and equalize everyone, which I think is a decent goal.

If it wasn't religion, I'm positive it would be something else. But I think it's very healthy to maintain separation of religion while at public institutions, particularly in a world where religious extremism is on the rise.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 years ago

Laicity is tolerance. What's happening currently is the opposite of tolerance. It's extremism the same as the most zealous fanatics, it's merely fascist zeal instead of religious zeal.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

For those who don't get this, 'Laïcité' is what the French call the secularism which is part of their constitution.

Plenty are as serious about it, as many in the US are about free speech or the right to own a gun.

Obviously this is also in part a more recent phenomenon. France has a large Muslim population and laïcité is arguably interpreted more strictly by those who wish to combat the influence of Islam on French mainstream culture.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

To be fair, it is more correct to say « France is a racist country hiding behind laïcité and feminism to justify their Islamophobia. »

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

Its funny that Islamists use the term "Islamophobia" considering they teach an homophobic culture themselves. Dont ask for tolerance if you are not willing to be tolerant yourself.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

All other religious symbols are also banned (in schools), so this argument seems pretty weak. One can agree or disagree, but considering religion a private matter that should stay out of the public buildings is a perfectly legitimate stance, in my opinion.

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