this post was submitted on 05 Sep 2023
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Schoolgirls who refused to change out of the loose-fitting robes have been sent home with a letter to parents on secularism.


French public schools have sent dozens of girls home for refusing to remove their abayas – long, loose-fitting robes worn by some Muslim women and girls – on the first day of the school year, according to Education Minister Gabriel Attal.

Defying a ban on the garment seen as a religious symbol, nearly 300 girls showed up on Monday morning wearing abayas, Attal told the BFM broadcaster on Tuesday.

Most agreed to change out of the robe, but 67 refused and were sent home, he said.

The government announced last month it was banning the abaya in schools, saying it broke the rules on secularism in education that have already seen headscarves forbidden on the grounds they constitute a display of religious affiliation.

The move gladdened the political right but the hard left argued it represented an affront to civil liberties.

The 34-year-old minister said the girls refused entry on Monday were given a letter addressed to their families saying that “secularism is not a constraint, it is a liberty”.

If they showed up at school again wearing the gown there would be a “new dialogue”.

He added that he was in favour of trialling school uniforms or a dress code amid the debate over the ban.

Uniforms have not been obligatory in French schools since 1968 but have regularly come back on the political agenda, often pushed by conservative and far-right politicians.

Attal said he would provide a timetable later this year for carrying out a trial run of uniforms with any schools that agree to participate.

“I don’t think that the school uniform is a miracle solution that solves all problems related to harassment, social inequalities or secularism,” he said.

But he added: “We must go through experiments, try things out” in order to promote debate, he said.


‘Worst consequences’

Al Jazeera’s Natacha Butler, reporting from Paris before the ban came into force said Attal deemed the abaya a religious symbol which violates French secularism.

“Since 2004, in France, religious signs and symbols have been banned in schools, including headscarves, kippas and crosses,” she said.

“Gabriel Attal, the education minister, says that no one should walk into a classroom wearing something which could suggest what their religion is.”

On Monday, President Emmanuel Macron defended the controversial measure, saying there was a “minority” in France who “hijack a religion and challenge the republic and secularism”.

He said it leads to the “worst consequences” such as the murder three years ago of teacher Samuel Paty for showing Prophet Muhammad caricatures during a civics education class.

“We cannot act as if the terrorist attack, the murder of Samuel Paty, had not happened,” he said in an interview with the YouTube channel, HugoDecrypte.

An association representing Muslims has filed a motion with the State Council, France’s highest court for complaints against state authorities, for an injunction against the ban on the abaya and the qamis, its equivalent dress for men.

The Action for the Rights of Muslims (ADM) motion is to be examined later on Tuesday.


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[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Good! The rules are for everybody. Freedom from religion!

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Oh, we are doing quotes now? I prefer this one from an ex-muslim:

My school and my family became increasingly radicalised in the 2000s - 2010s and while I used to wear the headscarf, I never used to wear the abaya. At home, I was being reprimanded for wearing non-loose fitting clothes. At school, I was told by a Muslim girl to start wearing more modest clothes and think about the Hereafter. Everywhere in the Muslim community at my college, there was ´Islam’. There was this pressure to act like a pious Muslim. The Islamic society segregated girls and boys. One Friday sermon included the reminder for « sisters to stop distracting the brothers »! I saw a Muslim girl put on the headscarf. She came to the prayer room and eventually she started wearing the scarf. I think there was another girl I knew too who did the same.

Eventually, I started wearing the abaya alongside my headscarf. This lasted a week because I could not handle it anymore.

It is therefore not true to say that a Muslim woman wearing an abaya is cultural and about her freedom. What France is seeing is a radicalisation of Muslim youth. Girls coming to school in ´modest’ Islamic clothing will actively encourage other more moderate Muslim girls to do the same. Just like it happened to me.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Typical NuAtheist reactionary bullshit. Yes, mistreating someone and pressuring them to wear this or that is bad, but that includes using the law to force people who do themselves prefer to wear an abaya or whatever else to not do so. Insofar as we can even call this a legitimate issue, it is one with far greater complexity than can be solved with sledgehammer legislation, even if some people do benefit, because many do not.

The sermon bit reminded me of Deen Squad.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Typical reply from an islamist that never left the muslim country where he lives. Where were you crying when Turkey had the same law?

Abayas and qamis are religious garments. However only women were the abayas. Why don't the men wear the qamis? What a strange thing: In a mysogynist religion the woman are so religious that wear religious garments! Lol.

it is one with far greater complexity than can be solved with sledgehammer legislation

Yes it's better to not do anything. Because it might hurt the feelings of muslims...

even if some people do benefit, because many do not.

Even if 1 person benefits with the law then the law is worth it. Or do you think that the law needs to benefit everybody? The law needs to protect the most vunerable. In this case the muslim women.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

Typical reply from an islamist that never left the muslim country where he lives.

I'm an American atheist and you're a chauvinist troglodyte

Even if 1 person benefits with the law then the law is worth it. Or do you think that the law needs to benefit everybody? The law needs to protect the most vunerable. In this case the muslim women.

If all it did was marginally help people, that would be good. But it doesn't just do that, it also hurts people, and that's the only reason people here are arguing against it (we don't have "Haram Police" here decrying infidels). It is punishing children for adhering to a clearly mostly benign cultural practice. Yeah, we can criticize it, but that's different from indiscriminately outlawing it or framing every single girl wearing a baggy dress as a victim of child abuse, and this all fits within a larger framework of plainly anti-Muslim policy forcing people to either assimilate or have no place in public life.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

I don't want religion in schools, outside that, you're still free to practice what you want, but keep religion out of education. France got this one right

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

After looking at what an abaya is and understanding some of the overt and covert reasons for doing this and the reaction, the cool solution would be if abayas (they're really just a loose dress) started to be marketed at everyone, so that anyone could wear them and end this stupid debacle. What do people wear in the west if they don't want people to look at their "curves" anyway? Huge market gap, right there. Or maybe instead of abayas they'll start wearing long trench coats to school, lol.

PS: meanwhile, in SA: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-women-socialmedia-idUSKCN1NL2A1

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

"Women in Saudi Arabia have for decades been required to wear the abaya - a loose, all-covering robe - in public, a dress code strictly enforced by police."

And there are still people in here defending this lol

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Sincere question. Obviously France is racist as fuck and instituting (or enforcing, whichever) policies in a racist way. But I'm seeing a lot of people saying that these outfits being banned are not actually religious at all, and are only culturally popular within the cultures of the people being targeted. If that's the case, why are they still coming to school wearing them? If I were a kid and the government suddenly decided I'm not allowed to wear blue jeans to school, I'd wear khaki pants and then meet up with my friends and say "wtf is the deal with this new policy"

If they're just clothes and not religious garb, why are kids still wearing them to schools which don't allow them?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Some people want to dress modestly. Would you feel uncomfrtable if they told you to strip at school?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

That seems like a very disingenuous framing. Khaki pants are no more or less modest than jeans. A rule saying "don't wear this specific article of clothing" is not a rule against dressing modestly, and I'm certain that there are plenty of modestly dressed children of all sorts of cultures at all these schools.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I think you just missed their point, which was about the original clothing being connected to modesty culturally.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I just don't know if I believe that their culture has exactly one garment considered modest.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Do you think France would be cool with them wearing other garments considered modest by their culture?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago

I haven't yet seen evidence they wouldn't.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago

How much of human stupidity can be boiled down to "I don't like you wearing a silly hat," I wonder.

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